SPEAKER_01 0:00

Global change is on the move, and South is where it's all happening. This is Global South Thing, a must-listen podcast putting the spotlight on powerful stories, bold innovations, and untold leadership from the global south, all reshaping our shared future. Mr. Maktar, I'm very pleased to have you with us today for a very interesting conversation about the digital landscape within Africa.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

It's a pleasure being there.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Let's start with some numbers here. We have over 570 million internet users within Africa in 2023, according to GSMA. But I mean, in comparison to the huge number of population that Africa has and the African disporas everywhere, so I think it's still African people are underrepresented when it comes to the digital landscape. How do you evaluate the situation here?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, I think there are many aspects. What you say is right. Yeah, if we take pictures coming from these institutions like GSMA and Azus, it can seem to be low pictures. But as the same thing we do when we do audience research for radio and television, I think it has to be put into some kind of environment. Because okay, they say this number, maybe based on what? Based on maybe on the number of smartphones, based on the number of uh uh PCs, whatever. But in your home, your daughter or your father or your mother, whatever, can use your rules. And they won't count it, they just count one. So, in terms of effective usage, I think that the figures go far beyond. The other thing also is that you know um we have a lot of problems linked to infrastructure, electricity. And you don't have electricity, there is no way you can have access to the internet, and even the cost of internet, wherever it is feasible and available. But there are many plans underway in almost each and every African country to take care of it and change the whole situation. In a country like Senegal and I'd be heading back to this, we've got what we call the new technological deal. And its purpose is by the end of this year, 2026, to have one million households connected to the internet via satellite. So I think a combination of infrastructure, uh renewable power, and uh lower prices of the smartphone and all this equipment that you know can convey and bring the internet all together and next will uh and uh you know, in the framework of a full strategy, will help, you know, filling up the gap. But anyway, I think that the number of smartphones, even in Africa, when you come to as so when we come back to figures, it has reached something which was unexpected. Many people won't even think that because of cost, whatever, in Africa we won't have this type of numbers. But whatever happens now, anyway, Africans are connected one way or another. And I think also we can we have to use those tools for various reasons: education, health, mobile money, whatever. When it comes to really uh those very precise questions, I can tell you like something I will get back on this the mobile money, for instance. I used to be the CEO of uh the regional managing director of Africa Online, based in Kenya and covering the whole area. Mobile money comes from MPSA, MPESA is from Kenya, swahili meaning uh money. Uh yeah, so I think there are many, many examples like that which really have to be brought up and correct the overall perception.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

So for us to address the uh the digital land escape within Africa, we have not only uh think about the digital issues, but also, I mean the online ones, but also we have to think of the offline ones. So we have the urban versus rural, you know, divides within Africa. To what extent do you find that this issue is is hindering efforts to have a better digital inclusion of everyone within Africa?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

This is really, it's really a very, very um concerning issue. And uh it applies to the digital, it applies to many other things like health, education, whatever. This gap, this divide between the rural areas and the um urban areas. And this is one of the factors that explain exodus leaving the rural areas, coming into the city with whatever it implies in terms of uh housing, of uh violence, of uh basic services, whatever. So I think many African countries now are taking care of it and to which of kind of what they call the universal access to all services, including the digital service. It's an issue, definitely. But it also needs money. It needs investments, it needs initiatives, it needs an overall plan which can cater for all these aspects.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Speaking of the access here, um, shouldn't we also be sharing maybe the blame with the telecommunication companies to expand the access for people?

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, you know, the third telecommunication companies, especially in the South and in Africa, I won't say they are really a problem, but the way they operate is quite different from what they do when they are in Europe. I lived 18 years in Europe when I was the CEO of TV5 for Africa, based in Parks. The cost of the internet, including the 24 play, which is television, telephony, mobile, whatever, in the internet, is maybe double in Africa, where the cost of living is, I mean, higher. There is no way you can explain those. So I think they are a big responsibility, and this is why, you know, when it comes to making these international bids and choosing the operators, our governments, the public authorities have to be very careful and put some kind of criteria whereby they can really take care of the overall picture and overall national strategies.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Let's touch upon the monetization of uh of the digital age and the telecommunication within Africa. Um, thinking of sub-Saharan African, for example, it's leading the world in mobile money accounts with over 480 million accounts according to the World Bank in 2023. So, how does life does look like with an African this perspective?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah, no, let me just give you maybe another example. You know, in Kenya they talk about mobile mobile money ending.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

It started when people say, okay, you've got your daughter or your nephew or whatever, your grandma within the village. She has no bank account, she has no visa cards, but she has very urgent needs, like paying a bill or going to the health center or just buying food. What do you do? Are you using the post office, which sometimes is and does not exist? Or what is the solution? So it came from very basic and very precise needs that this came up and it was invented with Safari Comb, whatever they they claim that they are the one who did it. But it it previously, before they announced it officially, there was this need, and as an internet companies, we started looking into those things and those solutions. So this is, I think, something which is very key.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Mr. Makter, for us to change the fintech everyday life, we have to also change the mentality uh within the African community, within the African government as well, for us to ease the transition from traditional financing systems to more mobile banking systems. So, how feasible is it?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, I think uh it is we have to go step by step. Because you know, in Africa we are very much used to having cash. People they have no confidence in banking because bank procedures are very, you know, constraining many, many times. They will ask you for your ID, and sometimes some people don't have any ID for whatever birth certificate. Some people don't have it at all, and uh you don't even know how to sign whatever. The signature is changing from one paper to the other one. So going into the traditional, the official bank financial structure may be sometimes very constraining. So many people resort to cash. But I think it's really necessary to do it, and there are many, many examples that are underway in even for the government and public services. For instance, you know, in Africa, with many, many places, when you go out, you are driving your car, the policeman will uh uh uh ask you to stop. You think you have done something wrong, something is wrong, and you will say to have some money or whatever. So if or we say, okay, you will be fined or whatever. I am writing a paper to you, but okay, if you want, you can pay cash, whatever. But if you have an application and it's done anytime you know, and we are doing it, for instance, in Senegal, it's the way now, and in many other African countries, you just okay, you want to write a bill to me, okay. Write it, give me your application, and I pay immediately. I think we need those types of things, even in terms of tax pay payment in general for many, many, many, many uh companies, like in for what we call the informal economy. People who you know come and you know do their business who have never paid any uh tax at all since they have been existing. I think this is also a solution using and resorting to the uh digital thing. So there are many, many examples that can be you know uh factored. We need to get there, it needs really to strategize, it needs also some type of means, and also education and information to get it popular, you know, so that people can understand that it's um certainly a constraint at the beginning, but it's something which really is makes life easy, and uh we have to get there to happen gradually.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Thinking of the government itself that should be leading the transformation towards you know the digital age. Do we have enough e-governments within Africa? I know that Rwanda and Ghana are doing a great job.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Before Rwanda, many, many others. In Senegal, I was living in Gabon years back. Some I lived there for 10 years in Gabon, whatever. I had to do, I wanted to do uh a building in Senegal. I went into the e uh whatever e platform. I made my application, my architects and all the documents, everything was filed, and I got it while I was in Gabon, and the building is up and running. So, I mean, it's uh many, many countries did it ahead. Even in Gabon, it was, I think, around 2009, before we uh they hosted the African Cup of Nations soccer soccer. We put what we call WiMAX, and the government and all public services were linked to a platform using that one. So there are many examples that are doing, but it has to be consistent, not just for one specific area, one ministerial department which is doing it, the others are not doing it. It has to be integrated, and also it has to really go to the public. Because at the end of the day, they are here for the service of the public. So that if you need any paper, some people, when they need a birth certificate or whatever, what they do, they will ask somebody to go there, take a train or take a bus, spend three, four days before they get it. And even, you know, for for in the name of corruption, if you don't pay, they won't give it to you. But now, what we are trying to do in Senegal and in many other countries, from your laptop, you can get everything, fingerprint, print your documents and get it there, and even pay online. This is where we want to be. But if to do that, you need also to sort once again the electricity issue. People have to the cost of internet and the stability of the whole system. So it's a big challenge. I think it's an ongoing challenge, but we need really to put the right infrastructures and uh everywhere. Even coming back to Senegal, what we do with the new technological deal is also to have uh public internet all over, in health centers, hospitals, educational institutes, um, airports, whatever. At the airport, okay, you have it already, but in many, many, many places where you can have this access and fee. And to come back to what you said earlier for the telecom companies, they make too much money on this. If you see the cost of internet in most of our countries, you cannot believe it. Very expensive, very expensive. Whereas, you know, they have made money a long time ago, and there are many, many things, they are developing new services, whatever, and even sometimes competing with the banks. The telecom company, economic uh companies, most of them now have some kind of banking department. It's acting just like a bank. And they do also the same, they compete with us, media providers, they do content and everything again, using their, you know, their platforms, whatever. So this has really to come into some kind of legal framework in terms of regulation, regulatory law. I'm teaching it at the Senegalese University. Don't regulatory law is something which is very important because it's what uh can, I mean, uh structure the whole industry, each player, what are the roles, what are the duties, what are your, I mean, uh, what are you entitled to? And uh also to do international bids, relevant international bids. Because most of the time people they just bring in some kind of telecom operators, whatever, because they have got some kind of money on the backside. And this has really to be revisited. And this is in many, many African countries now. There is really this will to have a strong digital policy, very clear, transparent, and which at the end of the day is at the service of the populations.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

So the issue here is not limited to the digital regulation or the digital strategy that we need for the government, for the public service, but also a trust issue, maybe in these institutions. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, yeah, you need to, it's it's a mix, I think. And at the very beginning, it's having a vision, the right strategy, and you know, breaking it down to and taking into account all other aspects. It's really uh a big chantier, as we say in French. It's a really uh something, but it's something key. The world nowadays, you know, operates that way. We cannot be left aside, and we need really to be part of it and bring our contribution. And beyond Africa, I mean the South, generally speaking, has a lot to provide to the whole world in terms of values, in terms of originality, in terms of ethics, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Thinking of, I mean, the reaching out um to the people themselves, many startups right now within Africa um are developing NLP tools to have more of like an um inclusive African language for everyone. So, how do you find the situation?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, yeah, we had um, I represent the private sector and the African Union of Broadcasters, which is comprised of all national television and radios of Africa, plus some private like me and some kind of uh participant members, what we call. So we organize in uh Cameroon, Yaounde, on my, I think it's March or April 2024, a very big event with something like 1,400 people coming from 80 countries to discuss all these issues. And I was tasked to be, you know, the uh chairman of the strategy committee. What do we need to do in terms of AI for the African countries for media surely, but beyond media for health, education, and other aspects and the language issue is very important because it all depends, you know, when you this technological tools, it all depends on what you put inside. And sometimes somebody was telling that, you know, when you when he tries to verify his name using the AI, the name is wrong and say something totally different because the pronunciation is not the same, and the AI does not factor all those languages, and this is, I think, a big avenue for us Africans, thousand uh countries to come into the game and have lots of proposals in terms of you know getting applications, really adapted applications, new applications that can take care of all these languages. If you take every single African country, the minimum is 30. Sometimes you go to up to 500 local languages. But if you just say, okay, let's try and see 200 main languages that we can find all over in the South Africa, in the Middle East, whatever. I think if you put some kind of task team of young people who are very clever, because they invent every on a daily basis, there are new applications that are invented by African 10,000 people. So if they do that, I think we can come up with solutions and bring our contribution to this AI process and AI content. Content is something which is key. We need to produce more because whatever AI is replicating, duplicating, is what those who initiated it, those who are behind are putting in it. So what do we do in terms of what is the volume of whatever we is the quantity and quality of what we are producing? And this is a big challenge, and I think we really we have to work on that. And the second thing after this meeting in Yaounde, we had a second meeting in Gaboron, Botswana, where this was really I mean refined. And we have decided to put some kind of observatory. We don't know if there are three countries which are already applicants, an observatory for AI, and how can we take the best advantages of AI and avoid everything that can be some kind of um I mean bad avenues or bad takes for our countries. So this is in process. But generally speaking, all this debate when you have them, even including in the media industry, they did some kind of survey, and I think just maybe 10% of the staffs all over, except Namibia, which did some kind of training for 80%, they reach 85% people who are using AI, but not more than 10% use AI. By the time this is, I think uh in the next two or five years, maybe we'll go beyond that figure. But this is very, very important, and it's really uh something we have to take care of. It needs a lot of training, it leads, as you say, with a full strategy, and also in terms of implementations, getting the right infrastructure and keeping it updated because it's not done once for all. It's a full process, a day-to-day process that you need really to follow up.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

What about ethical AI here? I mean, the ethical uh discussions we have globally, can Africa co-lead in this regard?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, I think Africa can contribute a lot because you know there are lots of things that we you take, you know, in terms of family of values, of a number of things, of religion and all those aspects I think which are key in human life, we can bring lots of things. When uh you know you are in a for instance, we are now in a let's say, in a word, when when they say genre, they will ask you male, female, and they put other for us. There is no way they can be other. As the former president of Seng Al Dev Paul Senas used to say, at the banquet of excellency, Africa has to put and bring its uh contribution. So I think it's uh in terms of ethics, definitely we have a lot of things to bring forward.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Looking at the African community, African students as well, uh during the pandemic, there was a huge shift from uh governments, ministries of education towards you know the uh digital tools to at least continue and resume the education. So, how was the situation during uh COVID? I mean, at that time, and how can we learn from the situation to be better prepared uh and to have more of like a ready uh strategy for Africa to um catch up with what's happening when it comes to um you know ed tech?

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Well, I think the COVID, as you mentioned rightly, the COVID uh uh period showed that we could really reinvent the way we are doing our education and everything. And the media altogether in Africa, they played a very key role in terms of uh not so not only in terms of health prevention, you know, getting the right information, whatever, but even for education, because many people and students did not go to school and we started using it, and even in terms of uh, let's say, economical aspects, in terms of reducing travels and everything, and having these online meetings, whatever. So if you go to East Africa, East Africa is a very good example. You've got, I think there will have been something like five more than 500 applications of ed tech initiatives. Among those, there are you know we've got something like 20, which are key and almost 10 which are top, but which are proved to be very, very efficient, you know, on a day to day basis. So, definitely, I think you are definitely right, and you've got the big picture.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Another aspect to be discussed about. The access to the digital tools is the gender access. Still, we are facing imbalance within Africa. Only 26% of you know women are using uh mobile phones and the internet, according to GSMA 2023. So, what's behind the divide here?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Okay, there is a divide, but the use of uh smartphones, I'm sure that the ladies are more than the men. I can tell for my own environment. But generally speaking, it has to do really with the um role and the perception of women in our societies. You know, uh when you have a choice, uh, either to put to bring your boy or the girl, your son or your daughter. If there is a choice, the son goes to school and the daughter remains at home. Yeah, and this you know has impacted um all those percentages and rates over time. But things are changing. In my organization, 65% of the staff are female are women. Women are minority.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Minority here.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah. And even in terms of sometimes initiatives, for instance, in there is one young Senegalese who just issued uh a book on uh she's uh doing this kind of uh control of fake news, whatever, and in disinformation, she wrote a book. She's very young, you know, 25 years. Maybe it's in English, but it is in French version, but I really hope that she puts it in the English version so that we can send it all over and see. She has a real expertise on those. So despite the number, when they are around, ladies, young, girls, whatever, they can be very performing. And I think that this can balance this kind of uh you know umjustice that we can uh see in the media industry and the overall digital area. But also there are some organizations like um one of ladies in Senegal, you have it of all ladies who are working in the telecom companies. It is uh farm new, they call it farm numeric, digital ladies, and they have lots of, you know, they do conferences, they organize some kind of events. Really, they are formed a very good, which the men do not have. So I think this can be some kind of leverage point, and uh definitely, but we have to work on that because uh it's my strong conviction that you know you are the soul, you ladies, the soul, the spirit, the household and of the nation, and you deserve to better treatment in all aspects.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

For sure, for sure. Thinking of the creative aspect of the digital age, we have arts, music, uh animation, filming. So, how does Africa does in this regard?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, I think we are there in a starting point. Even you can even include uh uh what they call esport. I've got a friend who is really at a who is known as Senegalese, a la Giman, who is at the same musician, and also who owns the media and who is known now worldwide, and in terms of esports, he's one of you know the tycoons. But he seems so alone in his corner, with people don't understand whatever he is trying to do. But I think that the overall trend and uh really to get to the next step, going from local to global, when I mean global, even on a nationwide and continental wide and even beyond, they need to adapt and really use those tools, which are modern tools that can really uh boost their business, their uh credibility, um, and uh get can get more funds all around that, not only for this specific aspect of music, whatever, but also it can be used in all other areas.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

I think really it's uh but to monetize the digital, I mean, uh platform and labscape within Africa, we don't only need the um African uh creators uh and funders, but also we need also big companies such as uh Google, Microsoft, to at least choose Africa to be the headquarter for data collections and some maybe other research centers. Um so but Africa at the end of the day um faces too many geopolitical issues, security issues. So, how do you think that Africa will be able at least to address and manage these geopolitical and security issues in the near future?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

We have a big issue with this is what we call them, this gaff of Google, Amazon, all those. We have a Facebook, whatever. We have a big issue with them in in Africa and maybe maybe even in your region. Because they use your content. This this program you are doing with me right away. They can come in and take it and use it. I can see that you prepare it, you made research, made a number of things. They will use it, but you won't get one single cent or one single penny. They pay in other in Europe, they pay. The European Union succeeded to constrain them to pay. Canada recently succeeded to make them pay. But at the as we are talking now, they are not considering pay anything, either in the Middle East or in Africa, whatever. And they are using the content. In terms of monetarization, I think it's unfair because we are talking about millions and millions of dollars. It should be fair really to be, I mean, um, rewarded and paid for whatever they use in their platforms. But also at the same time, many Africans think that we should have also our own tools, our own Google, our own Facebook, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Clouds.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes, our own cloud. Are we uh strong enough and I mean determined in when I strong morally, in terms of uh engagement, of commitment? Are we really committed to make this happen? I think that we got the human resources which can do that. If you take each and every country, there are many, many, many people who are creative people, who have technological know-how and whatever. The initial funds can be put together. But do we how do we proceed? There are many, many meetings that are taking happening and taking place in Africa all over for the startups and for and many other digital uh you know enterprises. And I think they should really come up with solutions whereby we can use our own platforms as well and uh exist and like any other one, and also make money out of it because this economy is quite a vibrant economy. There are lots of billions of dollars involved at the end of the day. When you see all of them, you know, Starlink and you can see Musk, Elon Musk, all those people. They are among the richest people in the world. Do we still sit back and be just simple consumers? Or do we want to be good players the same way we are doing in sports now?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Or we are doing in many other areas. I think this is really a must, an urgent must, that really we take this, we take the bull with the horns and make this happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

But there are also risks associated, I mean, with taking you know the the lead to do this, to have uh regional African clouds, infrastructure companies, um data collection centers. So is Africa ready for this? If we are going to have uh very pure local, you know, African platforms?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

They say that Africa is ready and is doing it. The African Union, they say they have a strategic plan by 2030. They said between 2020 and 2030 to do that. We are in 2026, there are four years remaining. Yes. I'm not very sure that they can achieve it. Technically speaking, yeah. I think that to make those things happen, most of that, it should be okay, there are the political and institutional aspects, but they have to work with the private sector and the professional of each and every sector. If you leave it to politicians, it will never happen. All those initiatives that are now, I mean, dominating in this world are not been done by politicians. It came from the private sector, sustained by the uh public services and the institutional services and the politicians, and it happened. So I think it's really the way to go. And if they want really that Africa comes to that stage, and Wanda, for instance, is doing it a lot. President Kagame has convened many, many meetings and international events on those. And at the end of the day, whenever we have got events like that, let's come down to very pragmatic things, actions, activities, and plans. And I think it can happen.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

But then thinking not only about the national level, which could be taken care of by every single African state, but also about the regional level here, thinking of the African Union that is aiming through its uh digital transformation strategy 2020, 2020, um, 2030 um to have more of a unified digital market here across 55 countries. So is it feasible here?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Not right now. I think it's a process. And uh it can start by very specific things. Let's say for AI, let's have a common stand. What we are doing professionally with AUB is to have this observatory for AI. There are three African countries who want to host the headquarters, whatever. Which kind of staff do we put? It can be an international staff, each and every country having a representative, whatever. Let's do it that way. And let's provide the right funding. Let's do me really like the Japanese used to do, um, for the step-by-step approach. And every step that you make is consistently consolidated, and you move to the next one. But if you just, you know, declare that you want to do this thing, I mean, it is it is political speech. But political speech has to be really implemented by professionals and people who have the know-how, who are specialists of this thing, then. Private sector at part of the sector. So I really think that that is the way to move. It cannot be unified by the stand. No, there is no way it can be. But even in terms of many other aspects, it's not unified. Even if you come to things that have no, I mean, real uh contradiction like sports or culture, whatever, what is the initiative that can be seen as a pan-African initiative gathering everybody? No. There are so many things that you know are here. We talk about African integration, and integration I think can be boosted by the digital. But the digital with content coming from the content providers. And uh, I don't think that really, if we leave it to the politicians, this will happen very soon. Sorry for them, but this is the. We need to have national and pan-African champions.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Maybe some figures. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I want to be a Bolloré in uh for Africa, like what he did with uh the teleprivate television in in France and coming all over Africa. Anyway, we we need to do that. We cannot all the time, you know, uh leave our destiny to others. We can collaborate definitely, we are not fancy, but we have to be the main actors, the main players who define, we know our needs better than anyone else. We need we know our environment better than anyone else. We can't be left aside and say, okay, we this is done for you, we did it for you, just consume. No. Because behind all this, there are some kind of very strategic and economic issues and financial issues at the end of the day. And we need to have more jobs, we need to have in a continent where 77% of the population is 35 and less, we need to have solutions, and solutions can also stem out of the digital.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

For sure. Your final advice for a better African digital age.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

No, I think um I'm very confident that the African youth, the African ladies, which when I do my day-to-day uh press review, international pay-review, which I do, everything that has to do with politics, economics, technology, environment, education, sports, health, everything. I do it on a daily basis where I have I am in the world. And I can see in terms of innovation, every single day you have a minimum of five or six new applications made by Africans, switching health, culture, anything else. I mean, you have got some people who have even invented and who are even manufacturing drones, and so if we have that, we have to rely on them and ask them what are the solutions and believe in them, and believe in them, and fund them. And also, we need to avoid when I say champions, we need to have people in our whole area, like it is here in Abu Dhabi, who are very rich, who can provide added value to the whole society, and uh this is a big take, but the role of this has to go with proper leadership, good governance, transparency, and a big vision for Africa and for the world in good cooperation and for countries like our countries which have been colonized, we need to broaden the scale, take into account that we need to cooperate with each and everyone based on mutual interest, not only of the interest of one of the parties. So I really am very, very confident that uh the uh uh I mean the challenge is in good hands, and it will happen. The sooner, the better.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Sure. And we wish Africa a very bright digital future.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Thank you so much, Mr. Makhtar, for being here.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

It's a real pleasure meeting you and wishing you all the best, and uh just push on and uh for sure, you know, and with special programs like this, you need to share with the African. I'm sure that many Africans, whatever you have been doing, not not my own, but whatever you have been doing so far, can be of real interest, can inspire other young ladies, can inspire other young people to see, okay, she's doing it. We know we can see that there are beyond it, there is good preparation, um, there is no-how, there is vision, there is some kind even of passion. So you need to really to make it known beyond your own environment.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

That's why we are here in global southing, navigating new voices and new um opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Keep it on from the global podcast. Keep it on higher and higher.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Valuing your advice for sure. Thank you so much, Mr. Makter. You've been listening to Global Southing Podcast.