SPEAKER_00 0:00

Global change is on the move, and South is where it's all happening. This is a global southing, a must-listen podcast putting the spotlight on powerful stories, bold innovations, and untold leadership from the global south, all reshaping our shared future. Mr. Samilo, I'm very pleased to have you here in Abu Dhabi, flying all the way from Nambia.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

No, thank you very much. It's indeed a pleasure to be around. I've met beautiful people in a beautiful city. So it's a pleasure for us to be around.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Whenever we think of Africa and its future potential, we the first thing that might come to our minds is the huge population we have within Africa. I mean, it is it was estimated in uh 2023 by the United Nations that the African population reached 1.4 billion and uh it is expected to reach 2.5 by 2050. Huge population means huge power and potential. So how can African countries maybe leverage this power uh for the future of Africa?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah, I think as you rightfully have indicated, if that uh mess, the big numbers of people are properly coordinated to the extent of saying, how can we move Africa forward naturally? That can become a serious force to be reckoned with. And I believe the leaders on the continent have realized that they will have to work together if they are to make impactful changes to the lives of their people that they are leading on the continent. So I fully agree. These are good numbers, but if they are not used properly, then it will be a serious waste as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

But with the huge population, some um emerging risks, concerns, challenges also emerge, you know, um, such as the youth unemployment within Africa. So, how the African countries, from your point of view, um are trying to address this issue?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, look, the issue of unemployment, particularly amongst young people, is quite a serious problem to the extent that in some jurisdictions you will find now that the young people are actually changing the face of how politics are run because they've realized that they have power that is vested in them and that they can force governments to think differently. Now, in my view, and from what I've seen from a media broadcast perspective, there's a couple of things that governments should do. First of all, they need to sort of like engage and meaningfully have education for the young people. But they also need to look at aspects of the type of education that they give. Is this education that will put these young people in the streets, or will they come with education that will make these youth ready for work? So we are looking here at aspects of entrepreneurship. What can we do? And with the way technology has moved, there's many things that can happen these days. So if governments are attuned and they start creating, you know, what I would call Africa's own silicone valleys, then we will see young people getting in this already because we know already like countries like uh Nigeria, Ghana, South Africa, Egypt, and them already have these hubs where they are now taking the young people, putting them right into where technologies and they are creating things that resonate with young people where they can themselves also become quite good and great citizens. But rightfully so, if that aspect is not taken care of, it will create problems, as we might have seen in some uh some of our regions with on the continent.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

But let's say if we are going to have this scenario of creating the Silicon Valley within Africa, um, it's not only about the uh like the new mindset we have here, especially among the youth, but also having the infrastructure. We need more of like accelerating the work on uh urbanizing Africa and overall, you know, landscape. So, what kind of political and economic policies do we need to support this transition?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Look from an infrastructure perspective, particularly around where I believe the African leaders should be going to, particularly informed by platforms like the African Union. There has to be clear plans as to how this must play out. It will not help if you have a lot of young people, they are there, they have nothing to do. We need to create environments and sponsor them so that they can start creating things. I mean, if you look at what technology offers today in the agricultural space, in the space of education, in the space of health, young people are there, they are saying we have the skills, give us the education, get university, get vocational training centers that can help us to become meaningful contributors towards the economies of our respective countries. Now, if at all a government on the continent will not listen to that, they will be facing serious problems. And then you will find of late that the aspect of growing the countries is more found in the urban setting. Now, with that comes problems, in that you will find now young people moving from the rural setting into the urban areas up to the point where you will have congestion of people in the urban settings. So, what governments should be doing, in my view, would be to say that how do we take the same and move it into areas that ordinarily would not have uh economic activities and all of that. And with the way technology has moved, get people connected, give them energy, and then naturally business will start going. So the governments must think about their uh policies, they must think about how do we address this because if not, then it becomes a ticking time bomb that can explode in any given time.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

What about the media here? How would it contribute to the uh thinking that the new governments and the new thinking that governments in terms of policies, strategies uh are trying to inject within the African um countries and within the African communities to change at least the mindset of youth and populations? Um people may not really uh pay attention or or at least comprehend uh the governmental policies, but definitely they listen to media. You know, the public opinion is influenced here.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, that's a very good question because if you look generally where governments are, in most cases they will see the media as an enemy. The fourth estate, which is the media, is actually there to assist in telling people what governments are doing. So if a government will not articulate their plans and don't make use of the media, people will not know what they are busy with. And people will start formulating their own views around things. But in the case of SADEC, where I'm coming from, we have a platform called the Southern African Broadcasters Association. There's 16 countries, public broadcasters, where we have combined forces, and we have now started telling the stories the way we see them. All entities are contributing towards that. And all of a sudden now, within SADEC, now we can tell our stories, we can share, we can tell people what our governments are doing, but also at the same time hold the governments very accountable for the actions that they they must do. And in the case of Namibia, I'm very, very, very happy actually to state that in terms of media freedom, we have for many years been rated as the number one uh uh media free country on the continent and how we've been thinking with uh Seychelles, we've been moving between first, second place, and all of that. So it does tell from a Namibian perspective that things are moving. And we also know in countries where the media is free to report, you see there's a relationship with how the economy is going as well. So we believe that the media has a role, and the role of the media is such that we need to be truthful about the things that we report on. It's not our job to tell uh what I would term bad stories. But on the other hand, I am saying if you are in charge of a country, do the right thing, and the media will report as such. But in most cases, you will find that the media gets blamed. The media is not creating stories. The media is reporting on things that are happening. If you do the right thing, so you don't have to be there. So our role is quite an important one as well, because we must guide, we must inform, we must allow people to be there. Just yesterday I was on a panel discussion. One of the questions was that how does the media in general, particularly public broadcasters, cater for the youth, the young people in their programming? In the case of Namibia, we have taken very deliberate steps to make sure that the young people have a voice on all our platforms. In fact, to the extent we've even created TikTok news that speaks to them. As you know, they don't want to watch long stories and so on. So we had to gravitate towards that. And equally, on again, on the continent now, we have seen that artificial intelligence is there. It's influencing what we do. Today, you will pick up stories and they will look real. But it could just be a fake story that is missing from you. So as the media, we have that responsibility of making sure that what we publish can be authenticated to the extent that it can give people meaning in their lives. And also for those that are in public office, they must not see us as an enemy. We are there to help our respective countries to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So this is for the internal coverage or regional coverage within uh Africa itself. What about the international coverage of Africa? I mean, 80% of the international news come or um are produced by non-African platforms, according to DW Academia 2022. So, how can we tackle this? I'm sure that the African media uh platforms are very keen to reclaim at least the narrative of themselves.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

No, I'm very happy for that question. The fact that I'm seated here with you also will give a dimension different because now, as an African, I can come and share with you. Most probably you have an audience that knows about what is happening in Africa. Most probably don't have the information around that. So, part of what will need to happen is that at the international level, bodies that are dealing with news at that level must start employing journalists of African descent as well, so that they can also influence the main, the main stance around editorial policies and so on. But at the same time, it is also our job now as African journalists to make sure that we also tell the stories and we also find other platforms through which we can also make sure that our stories get there. And the beautiful thing today is that you find there are platforms like your YouTube, there are platforms like Instagram, there's platforms like uh Facebook. So if we put our stories out there, naturally, it should change that narrative. Because for years, Africa was known as the continent of struggles, people just suffering and all of that. And yet there are so many great stories that could never find their space into the international media. So for us, we believe we need to be there, we need to come to conferences like this so that we can also come and tell the great and good story of the continent as Africa.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

But let's think of this scenario. If we um, I mean, as African platforms are doing a great job when it comes to promoting positive stories of Africa, at least to reflect another narrative away from poverty and you know climate change, um, we are still facing the risks of you know the traditional dominant media platforms here. So let's say if I'm someone outside Africa uh trying to find some information on African certain uh how Africa is affected by certain crises, still I'll be using the traditional or the Western media platforms rather than going into African platforms. So, how can we address this?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

We need to collaborate, we need to have memorandums of agreements with the major players. We need to sit in their boardrooms and discuss with them and tell them that look, as a media, this is what Africa has to offer. And we believe that if people like ourselves get into these boardrooms, we will be able to change editorial policy frameworks, because otherwise, then the narrative will always remain the same. And also from a recruitment perspective, true. I've been looking to see, you will see offly on the bigger platforms like your BBCs and the CNNs, there are now elements that are looking at what is happening on the continent and beyond. And it's not just Africa, because there are other elements of when you look at it globally that are also depicted to look not that great. And yet you will see people are there, they are alive, their lives are moving. So, what we need to do, we need to find these platforms. That is why uh conferences where people are are sort of like uh invited to come and share their stories are quite important because that's where then the changes are coming through. Like in the case of Namibia and the rest of Sadek, we've started talking now also on the continent. There's a body called the African Union of Broadcasting.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

We are dealing with them as well, and then there's the element of eco-wask. We need to find a way first because we must clean our own house floors before we can convince others as well. So, as they say, charity begins at home. And I believe the trajectory that we are on now is a great one and it's moving well to make sure that that narrative, the negative one, that it's slowly moving out. And I must say that for having been in the media for quite some time now, I have started seeing a shift in terms of what is happening around stories that we are covering. Because if that element is not properly taken care of, people will always go to the negative side of what things are supposed to be, and yet that may not be the whole truth around what is happening.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

What about the South-South cooperation in this regard? You just mentioned the African Union broadcasting. Uh, this is in terms of the African cooperation, thinking of the global south. Uh, what else can we do within the global south to help the African media to reflect uh you know positive stories and maybe read stories about Africa?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Look, there's already politically good things that are happening because if you take countries like China, uh, India, and Brazil, and then, and you look at BRICS, there's already now collaboration that is happening at political level. In the past uh odd, seven, ten years, we've also seen collaboration at the level of media, where we are starting to share information now amongst us within the global south. And these things are working well. Maybe what is not happening great at this stage is most probably the uh the enhancement at the level where that influence will be. But of course, what we have seen is that there's now stories that are coming from that side of the global side into us, and us also sharing stories with the others. And even the podcast now speaks to exactly the things that we would want to see changing. So, politicians, yes, they must do their work at that level, but the media must also find ways of collaborating so that we can broaden the aspect of information that we bring forward to all others within the global south.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Shifting to digital transformation within Africa, right now we see more and more governments within uh Africa are injecting new policies with regard to e-learning, e-governance, mobile banking. It's requires sometimes, yes, to sort of facilitate a whole transition, but we need a gradual transition as well, not a fast one. Um, so what are the leading sectors within um the digital age for Africa?

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Look, with with the aspect of broadband now being what it is, and that is now internet speeds that are good. I mean, when we just look on the continent, we have the wets, we have COM, we have all these cables that are running undersea, bringing in fast moving internet into our countries. What governments have been starting to do now is also to invest even in 5G in the countries where we are. That naturally then has seen the growth of fintech, uh, which is a big one. And of late, when you look at the farmers, people are saying that agri tech is also quite important. I mean, people are already not doing work by using drones to go and deliver certain things. And the same when we look at the health space as well, areas where you would previously struggle to go and deliver medicine. If you have drones around, you can actually go to remote areas and deliver and see to it. So that aspect is quite one that is quite very encouraging. And you will not believe it. When you look at the people that are behind driving this uh technology, it's young people. That's why governments must invest and broadcasters, also like ourselves. We must allow young people to come in because otherwise we will think about the old ways of doing television, radio, and of late online. So I believe the ground is really, really fertile, and we have seen these things moving. In the case of Namibia, there is a massive rollout of 5G throughout the whole of the country. Fiber has been rolled out like nothing like, and from a broadcasting perspective, as NBC, we can today now broadcast from areas where previously we would not be able. All we need is at least a minimum of 4G as a speed, and then we can set up and make any broadcast possible for both radio and television. So, yes, the future looks good. Uh, governments must invest. If they don't, at least the telcos must invest, because otherwise, then if that is not done, the economies of the respective countries will remain uh small in terms of where they are.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Interesting. What about the tech disruptions here? Is Africa ready for this? I mean, even if we are going to have the digital infrastructure and maybe ask the youth to lead in this regard, there's still there are sort of uh risks associated as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Well, look, I I've always believed that uh people that are empowered, that are given the information and they are made to understand why these things are important, they are not likely to do any form of negativity. It's when progress is not seen. It's when we see that at the level of leadership politically, that nothing is happening. Once people can make those comparisons and say, but uh, but Stanley is a minister, his life is moving forward. But my life and our lives are not moving forward. That's when then people will start becoming uh unhappy and then they will start doing things that ordinarily would not happen. But if at political level the courage and the willingness is there to say, I will take my country and move it forward and then have people involved, talk to them, particularly the young people. The young people are very like, they they said, We've waited long enough. We want to see changes yesterday already. So that aspect, it will take not just talking, but it will take for those that are in power to convince that they are they they want to do this thing. So depending on the speed at which these things are happening, things may go well. But but if it takes for too long, we may have situations where things do not want to work. But at the same time, I'm saying this also with the understanding that we do not want to encourage any form of lawlessness. And it should matter where it happens on the continent. So dialogue, discussions at the broader level is something that we believe must happen. That is why of late you will also see throughout the continent there there's young ministers that are being appointed, young advisors, so that they can also inform our respective governments as to the things that young people need today, particularly with what technology offers today. Misinformation, fake news can create problems. So there has to be a way through which these things are being discussed and not trapped under the table, because at that point they will explode.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah. And this time I'm not going to ask what we can do in the global south to help Africa for the digital transition, but rather how can Africa contribute, I mean, in the near future, to the digital transition of the global south. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Well, one of the good things that have just happened a couple of weeks back, if not a month, you will remember the G20 meeting that took place in South Africa. First of its kind. That was quite a good platform because it was under the uh the chairmanship of the South African government. And what President Serum Ramaposa did, he invited some members of his colleagues on the continent, other uh presidents who came. They were all given a space to uh to talk about these things. Things like climate change and the cost of managing debt. These things were discussed there. The issue of loans that are most probably with institutions like the World Bank or the IMF, to say that if these loans are not properly managed, Africa may never move forward. And also, that has also sort of like brought to fore the fact that Africa is no longer, it must not be seen as a continent of beggars, but rather as convenient business partners that can contribute towards many of these things. Because if you look at uh uh what is this um underground mineral that lithium that is needed for many of these things, Africa is rich in these things. We have minerals, the only thing that has not worked well is the value addition thereof. You would find that the mines are on the continent, and yet when they are mined, the raw product must go out of the country, out of the continent, and then it comes back as a refined, a refined product to the extent that we will find that we can't even afford it. So there's that awareness now where African leaders are saying no, things that are being mined on this continent must be refined and value addition must happen on the continent, in the country, so that you can also create massive employment for those that need it. So that whatever dividends are coming from there should go back into the respective countries and move forward. On the aspect of technology, things have moved. I mean, if there are a couple of countries that are quite involved, because Kenya, they brought MPESA, which is uh a money-based solution that is using the smartphone. In Namibia, we have also a couple of them, the Mobi Pays and so on. So each and every country, we've started realizing that the power of the smartphone today is such that it can make many things very, very possible. But for that, you need dedicated connectivity. So broadband as a means of communicating must be something that is there. And equally for energy. Some of our countries we have enough, enough, uh, the sun is there. We are seeing now alternative energy coming through. People are now setting up all these things. The solar farms that are coming on, and then the biggest one that is also coming through is is is is green green energy. These are the things that where Africa sits now, they can sit on the table with partners that would ordinarily not listen to them. But now those are forcing others to sit so that they can discuss and see what is happening. And then in Namibia in particular, we are also now having elements of wind energy as well. Because part of our seaside in the southern part of Namibia, there's quite good wind, and uh we are busy looking in to see all the our best that can actually uh benefit here. So for the whole of the continent, if I need to come back, there's many such um uh opportunities that can make us sit at the table and discuss meaningfully with any partner or investor that would seek to have interest in what we do.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

But how do you evaluate the um consequences, especially that Africa still suffers from climate injustice? I mean, in terms of carbon emissions, Africa contributes only 3 to 4 percent, I mean, according to you, and EP 2023. But still, it suffers a lot when it comes to the climate change, global warming, um, that affects your daily life within Africa. Um, these voices are not really, I mean, taken seriously at the international and the global level.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

In fact, uh, a very good point that you are raising, the recently concluded G20 gathering that took place in South Africa, that point of climate change and the funding thereof came out as a quite a serious, serious point where the international community was made aware to say that they will need to assist in funding many of the African countries. So the awareness thereof is now receiving attention. It's just a pity that the G20 moving forward, because of the position that uh President Trump is having, yeah, it might retard elements of what Africa uh wanted to uh to achieve. You will know that Trump is on record for having said, like, he's not gonna invite a G20 member, South Africa in this case, to be part of that. But to come back to your point, that point was was high on the agenda, and we had other leaders that were there and they've listened. Where it will matter would be for us to see then what type of assistance will be given to the rest of the continent to make sure that the aspect of climate change does not affect us badly, even though we are not the main sort of like uh contributor to what's cut towards uh climate change, because the highly industrialized countries are the ones that are actually contributing towards the challenges that we're having that are linking to the climate change as it stands now. So it must be managed now. And your question is correct. Should the continent suffer whilst other are actually the cause of this?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Is there any other platform um in which Africa should focus on, I mean, in the near future for um maybe um trying to leverage the green voice here globally, especially within the global south?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Look, I think for me the the best platform would is always gonna be the African Union, because that's where the leadership of the continent sits. So their involvement in matters pertaining to global politics, the AU must take the lead. But we also know that from country to country, countries also have their own uh arrangements with uh others that they can talk to. If we speak about the global south, I've mentioned countries like China, uh, India, and Brazil, and then, but we also know that uh there are also discussions with others that may not necessarily uh fall within the global south. So those relationships must be kept, they must be enhanced so that at least when discussions are taking place, they are taking place at a level where the sum total of the challenges are taken care of. And we need to find the solutions because if one continent is going to be remaining behind, it definitely will have a negative impact on the rest of the globe.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Hopefully. Speaking of the trade integration within Africa, uh, we have the uh African Continental Free Trade Area. Um, it is expected by the World Bank 2022 that this area will be um leaving around 30 million people uh within Africa out of poverty. So, how's the trend like transition happening? How is the integration happening here? Is it feasible?

SPEAKER_01 29:50

It is feasible because I know that Namibia, for instance, has signed a couple of agreements on the basis of what that platform uh creates. And I believe what we need to see, we need to see an enhanced sort of like uh uh enhanced push to make sure that that agreement works for the whole of the continent. Because if it's only three or five countries, you will not find the impact. But if everybody says that on the continent, this is what we must be pushing for, then naturally what you just said a short while back will then become that reality that will assist everybody that is usually there. So I know from a Namibian perspective that there are some agreements that our government has signed with other partners on the continent. So we are also seeing that other countries are trying to do the same. But the leadership at that level must really push, particularly from an African Union perspective, to make sure that we get all countries involved to push into one direction because critical mess in this instance will be the thing that will help Africa to become the giant that it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

But then we come across the issue of having some economies within Africa that that are naturally stable, while others are. So this might maybe make some countries reluctant within Africa, you know, to move forward with the idea. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Well, it's a tricky one. Politicians must find common ground. They are the only ones that can solve problems at that level. For as long as there will be political disagreements at that level, it naturally will impact whatever we would want to do as Africans. So dialogue has always shown the way to say that if a particular narrative has to come, people must sit around the table and talk about these things. And if there are disagreements, then they must be sorted out. I mean, the other day I was seeing President Trump calling together Rwanda and the DRC and actually getting agreement. And yet we have the AU which is here. Then you're asking yourself, then, what is this that our body could not do that could facilitate a truce between the two countries? So we must actually learn from that and say that as Africans, what is this that we need to do that will make sure that we can keep ourselves together and and and chart a common sort of like future for all of us? Of course, the sovereignty of countries must be respected and will be respected, but there are things that we have in common. Imagine 54 countries on the continent. If they can pull together, that's messy. That's messy. That's messy.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Let's move to um a creative aspect of Africa's rise, which is uh movies, film production, music, art, culture. I'm very amazed by Nollywood. I mean, Nollywood is uh the uh the second largest um production platform, I mean, by output in the world. But to what extent do you find that the African culture is exported to the rest of the world in comparison to the sites of Nollywood here?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Look, I'll I'll give you the Namavian example. Uh before independence, uh things like music, theater was strongly influenced by the South African and the American influence of culture. So it took us a long time to get to a space where we started appreciating what is in Nambian.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

So the aspect of foreign influence coming into your country, if it is not matched with local, yours is likely to die. To die in the sense that you will find that people will prefer more to listen to others that are coming from outside. And sometimes it has to do with how we look at ourselves. But what has been happening, but at the slow pace, we would see collaboration between countries. And this is why I believe that once people are appointed to be ambassadors of a country into another African country, one of the first things that they must do, they must start saying that what can we do to try and bring the cultural, the arts aspect of countries together so that we can start sharing our different experiences. And I think that pace is very, very, very slow. We only have a few artists on the continent that are making it outside the continent as big artists. But but of late, we have seen a push where we are saying, maybe again, charity must start at home. And the beautiful thing about is that with the way in which technology has moved, people are now posting their own uh sort of like uh uh products, either on your TikToks, on your all these media platforms, uh your Instagrams and all of those, but still there is no push that is working towards making sure that we compete at a level where we are saying that as as Africa, maybe this is what we need to have. Just the other week I was in Addis Ababa, yeah, where I attended the first ever African Media Awards. Now that's a good start, but we need that to extend to music, we needed to extend to films, we needed to extend to all forms of art so that we can start pushing this where we can see things that will also make us very, very, very proud as a continent. But again, the media also there plays quite a major role in terms of what we display, what we get people to see. And uh and it's tough to make it outside. I mean, uh I like music, and uh I'm lucky because I've been exposing myself to all sorts of music. But now, if I'm only going to be listening to a particular set of type and style of music, that will form my narrative around what is good and what is not great. That is why when we look at broadcasters, we play a major role in assisting. And of late, of course, we have influences. So they must come on board, they must tell their stories so that people can get there. But again, if connectivity from um a broadband perspective is not there, people may not know about these things. So it must take the collective of a country to build into a collective of a region, which naturally then must get regions to come together that will then assimilate a continent like Africa, for instance, to move forward. If we do that properly, people will start respecting us.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

We spoke about uh arts production, film production. What about knowledge production? I mean, right now um we hear many African universities are among the top 500 universities, I mean global universities in the world, which is really promising. So, how can Africa contribute to the global education and knowledge production worldwide?

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Well, Africa has produced quite a number of knowledgeable people. The sad part is the bulk of them are in the diaspora, exactly because most probably they don't find means through which they can apply their knowledge on the continent. Hence, there has to be from country to country, there has to be a develop a deliberate program that will seek to say that all those that have skills in this particular area, maybe they need to come and form part of building and growing the respective uh industries. And then the universities as well, they need to look at ways of saying, for those that will be graduating from our universities or vocational centers, what is this that the country needs so that when they step out, they immediately become gainful, gainfully employed, sort of like citizens, or that can create their own forms of work, become entrepreneurs. And I think uh one of the things that have been challenging, particularly on the continent, you would find that the education, uh the policies governing education generally are almost changing every five years. So now that instability is also creating lots of lots of programs. We are not saying that at the level of policy implementation that these things should not happen. The question would be how relevant are they to what's also assisting in creating employment as opposed to taking a lot of students through, and once they are outside and then there's no employment for them. So uh governments at that level will need to sit and properly understand. Sometimes they need to benchmark and ask themselves, but why are other countries moving forward whilst others are moving are just remaining where they would be? I mean, we we see of late there are season values that are coming up, and some countries are moving fast, and others are not moving that fast. So again, it needs to go back to leadership in a country at political level, but at the same time as well, the regional blocks, and then ultimately on the continent feeding into what the African Union stands for. These debates must be open and they must be frank so that one can see what is workable and what is not workable.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

What about elevating the knowledge level here into more educational diplomacy that Africa can leverage from Africa to the rest of the world here? What do you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

As long as we are divided and we don't speak as a united African, that part of your question will not have any impact. But the moment we realize and say that as a bloc, this is the strength that we are having, and this is what we believe we can give and sell to the world outside the continent, that will make people to sit, listen, and do things. I personally believe and at this stage that many of the things, particularly on this point, you find that they are more country-driven. And the impact there will not be, you will not see it. Because as a country on your own, fighting a stage that is huge, you will just be a drop in the ocean. But the moment we come together and say, as a continent, we believe that critical mass will work for us, then we should be able to do that. Some of our best professors are outside the continent. They are working in other countries. And one must ask the question why is that happening? Element of research is sometimes an element that is lacking because part of uh of policy formulation must be supported by empirical evidence. And the question would be: how many African countries are truly making uh use of research findings that are coming from their own universities? Maybe that's a question that we need to put to the political leaders in order for them to reflect.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

What about other elements that we have also to put for the political leaders, such as security issues? I mean, whenever we think of Africa's rise, we want it to happen as soon as possible. But then we are somehow, you know, hindered by thinking about the security situation within Africa.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

You have to guarantee a peaceful platform in order for people to come putting their money, particularly if one would be talking to investors. Investors will not go and put their money into a system where they know that things might change uh tomorrow. So the aspect of stability from a security perspective does become a fundamental that must be there. If no guarantees can be given politically that an investor's uh in sort of like whatever they want to bring into a country will be safe, they will not go there. They definitely will not go there. And also at the same time, what I know is that many of the leaders are also quite mindful about investors that are coming. Are they coming to build a country or are they coming to loot? That awareness is also there. So you need a delicate balance that will look at what is this that we need to do that will give, first of all, citizens in the country also comfort in terms of security, and at the same time, also work in such a way that a country is not exploited. You will remember earlier on I indicated that Africa has lots of mines. Mining is big, but most of the raw materials are going out of. The respective countries, and then they come back as uh as as entities that have been enhanced somewhere, and then you will find that the local people can't even buy because the value addition is not happening in the country, but it happens far away when that product comes, that the local people can't even afford it. So we just need to change that as well to say that if there is a commodity here that we know is needed globally, value addition must happen in the country so that you can create more employment. And through that, because the more people are gainfully employed, the less of a problem we will have from a security perspective. And then politicians must learn to talk. And the only fight they must have is at the ballot box.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

True.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

That's where they should have their fight is to fight for seats, to fight for things that are there. So that at least if someone gets comes into office, they must come through elections. And all of us must agree to that. If those elections were free and fair, then that's the leadership that people would have decided on.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Exactly. My final aspect that I would like to uh touch upon is how do you see the future of Africa within the global south? I mean, the African component is uh strengthened now, and especially in the global south summit. So we see more ties deepened between Africa and Asia, Africa, Middle East, Africa and Latin America. So, how do you see the future of Africa within the global south in Berlin?

SPEAKER_01 45:36

I think from a geopolitics perspective, we have seen that things have changed. African leaders are standing up. Uh for President to tell President Trump that look here. You will not say you want to take over G20 and send a low-level official to come and take over the instruments. We will also give them back to you, but at that level as well. That is already a good sign of saying that. Respect us, treat us as equals so that we can start moving forward. I'm encouraged. You have platforms like BRICS, where the global south is also meeting, discussing. And then also from country to country, you have them also working outside the global south, which is also, I think, in my view, healthy for democracy as well. And then, of course, uh respective countries will also have their own preferences as to who they would want to talk to. But ultimately, the end game and the end goal would be to say where should we move Africa to so that it can become a force to be reckoned with. At least from my observations now, we've started moving away from being those that are just sort of like receiving. Because now leaders are sitting and saying, This is what we are offering. Can we have a meaningful discussion where we can sit around the table and discuss as it was? So the future does look positive.