SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to Global Soviet Podcast. Today we have an extraordinary high-level episode lined up with the one of the international leading minds on renewable energy. So let's get started. The global energy transition has officially entered a new phase. For many nations across Africa, Asia, and Latin America, the transition is not just about reducing carbon emissions, it's a vital catalyst for socioeconomic development, industrialization, and basic survival. To guide us through this complex landscape, we are deeply honored to welcome Her Excellency Gauri Singh, the Deputy Director General of the International Renewable Energy Agency, Irena. Her Excellency Gauri is an internationally recognized leader with over three decades of deep experience in energy transition. Your Excellency, thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Let's start with analyzing the global landscape here. According to a recent report published by Irina 2026, by the close of 2025, there was an increase up to 49% of the clean energy installations worldwide. So this is a promising. How does it work for the global south?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I think you've really, you know, hit the nail on the head right at the start. And the headlines, of course, as you said, are great. And what we are doing globally in terms of deployment is also very, very promising. Last year we uh had deployed as a global community almost 700 gigawatts, which in itself is a record. So the deployment on the ground is breaking new records every year, which is of course something that uh gives us uh a lot to be optimistic about. But uh, you know, it's it's all behind the numbers. And when you get into where these deployments are happening, then you know you're really looking at a few regions. You're looking at uh in Asia, you're looking at China and India primarily, you're looking at Europe and North America. And uh these by themselves take up about 85% of the deployment, which means that just about 14-15% is uh coming from the other regions, so which is South Africa, there's uh um uh South America, there's Africa, and other regions. So there is a huge regional disparity that's showing up, um, which you know, which has its own implications as we move towards uh the 2050 and a net zero promise that uh the global community and the leaders have uh put out.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

So what are the key factors here causing this imbalance? Is it the geographic factor? Is it technology deficit, financial gaps?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I I think you know there's not just not one, but it's a mix of factors. And uh clearly when you look at the areas where not much deployment is happening, uh these are all resource-rich, which means that they have a good amount of resource uh coming in the form of renewable energy potential, but that potential is not getting converted into projects on the ground. And that's primarily because of the uh you know a mix of uh the cost of capital that these projects have to pick up. And it's very different from the cost of capital in in uh Europe and in other countries. So that makes the whole project very, very uh difficult in terms of getting to its uh uh, even though we know that r renewable energy is now one of the cheapest sources for generation. But this cost of capital, the the um amount, uh is is also a factor of the political risk that lenders see for that country, the currency risk, and also the fact that you know you you're not very sure whether there will be once it gets generated, will there be the capacity in the in the local transmission and in the institutional capacity to be able to pick up all that is generated and to pay for it, which is now, you know, which is known as the off-taker risk. So all these risks combined make the the cost at which lending is possible to um to these countries, it becomes very heavy. Apart from that, you know, there's also policy gaps that are present. And um, you know, you you also have uh the transmission network, which is uh not as strong because most of the uh renewable energy that's now coming into the grids is variable energy, variable renewables, solar, wind. And that means you have to have a robust grid also to be able to uh, you know, when you inject it into the grid, it should remain stable and um also make it possible to distribute.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Irena has been doing a lot for years, helping countries, governments, um, the whole globe, including also the global south, as you said, to issue the relevant policies to make sure that we have um a good transition, a gradual transition towards renewables. So, what are the key efforts made here?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

If you look at the life of Irena, it uh um there were founding members, around 60 member countries that found came together to found it, and now IRENA has over 170 members, so nearly universal membership. In the first decade of its operation, which is the last decade, the thrust of whatever uh IRENA was doing was to create the awareness for uh renewable energy and to be providing the countries and the policymakers evidence of uh of how the costs are coming down. Resource assessment needs to be done. So we had um very, very important programs like the Global Atlas that provided resource assessment. Apart from that, there were also um, you know, uh a lot of studies that were done at the country level to to get them to understand their own readiness to be able to deploy renewables in their countries. So I would say almost the last decade of Irena's operation was more to spread the word about how this is going to become a very important source of energy and the need to start preparing policies uh for it. And I uh you know Irena provided very, very strong evidence to show how the costs are coming down. In this decade, uh very early on, we saw that there was a political momentum around uh you know the recognition that we cannot um pursue um the global good with the kind of energy resources that we are currently using and the need to transition into cleaner sources of energy. And that political momentum uh you know created not just a uh a momentum for renewable energy, but for an integrated look at energy planning. Interesting. And uh, you know, created that kind of space which now IRENA is very active in for energy transition and a just energy transition. So this is really the space where you know IRENA's programs now in this decade are primarily focused. Apart from the analysis on flexibility, apart from doing um and helping countries build their capacities to do least cost electrification. Uh, they're also very important programs that we undertake to support project developers. And that comes under the you know the very um well-known platform that we have of bringing together a consortium of lenders to support uh developing countries, build projects, and you know, take them to um to financial closure.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Your Excellency, you mentioned working closely with governments, countries, but also part of the cycle that would lead us to the green transition and more installations happening um when it comes to renewable energy is working closely with the private sector, technology provider, uh industrial partners as well that are um causing morph-like carbon emissions. So, how is the whole collective work um is managed here?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

You know, again, I think uh it it comes back to the the kind of uh space that the political momentum around net zero uh and stronger climate action has created earlier in this decade. And that's a space where which you know where it's clear that energy cannot be looked at only in terms of uh one aspect, but needs much more coordinated and integrated planning. So if you're looking at who the consumers of uh energy are, then uh clearly, you know, industry cannot be left behind. And these are the major consumers, these are the end-use consumers, uh, there are large industries, there are uh um, you know, buildings that consume a lot of energy, you have transport that consumes a lot of energy. And that means that it's it's no more a question of only looking at um, you know, supplying to the grid, but also making sure that the planning that's happening in the end-use sector is also runs complementary.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

For the end users.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

For the end users. And then that then means that you know Irena had to step back and start looking at how to build those kinds of alliances, how to create the platforms that can bring in the private sector very effectively, not just as technology providers. And we've you know, we've had a very strong platform for many years called Coalition for Action, which is primarily coming from the renewable energy technology providers. But now we've actually diversified, I would say, into three very important areas. Uh on the financing, there is the Energy Transition Accelerator Fund, the ETAF, which brings together a very strong consortium of financial institutions, um, reinsurance institutions, risk, so that they can cover risk, and you know, both on institutions that can provide equity, they can provide also the debt financing. So that's a very important platform for developing countries where you see Irena actually support the countries, but mostly the private sector developers, to bring their projects from paper to life. Um then we have a very important platform called the AFID, which is basically an alliance for uh industrial decarbonization. And on this alliance, we have brought together, I would say, some of the largest steel players, cement, aluminum, and uh chemicals uh manufacturers across the world. And uh this has actually become a very strong industry-led platform which is being supported by Irena to look at the various nuances of how decarbonization can be supported by renewable energy sources and technologies that can also be integrated to allow them to move that path. And uh in that, you know, we we've also seen that these uh industry players are fairly open in terms of how they want investments to flow, what is what are the challenges they're facing, and how how can they actually come together with Irena to bring their voices to the governments. And I and I think that's a you know that's a very important, convening um element that Irena is able to play of bringing the private sector and the governments and the policymakers together. Um I would also like to mention a very uh another emerging platform which again shows a lot of promise, and that is uh for um the utilities for net zero. Because ultimately, you know, these are the these are the key stakeholders that need to get their ACT together in terms of whether they are into the transmission, into the generation, or into distribution, to start supporting policy frameworks and long-term investment planning for upgrading their infrastructure to support more variable energy into their uh into their systems.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Your Excellency, you mentioned a number of initiatives led by Irina, the ETAF, the FED, and the uh UNIZEL that uh that manages the utilities more. Um and also we have the geothermal um, which are exactly so these are these initiatives are of key significance for the global south. So, what do you think? I mean, in terms of motivations that would bring the global south, um, governments, uh, partners, private sector, um, industrial, let's say, companies to join these alliances and contribute more to the uh clean transition um for the future?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Okay, I think, you know, uh let me take you through an example. I was uh in uh uh Vietnam government and uh um wind energy kind of uh energy summit. Vietnam is one of those countries in in Asia that has a huge offshore wind potential. And um at Irena we have uh we have a very strong um alliance called the the Global Offshore Wind Alliance. Now, offshore wind is you know it's a much more uh I would say um it's a different ball game from uh onshore wind. Onshore wind, I think you know most of the countries have cracked it. But offshore wind requires uh permissions um very different from onshore winds. And then there are obviously you know um requirements of clearing the defense requirements and security requirements and many others. So um, you know, I I was a part of this uh whole summit which brought together the uh industry. So the wind energy industry was there, which you know was there to support any ambition that Vietnam government had. Um you had the Vietnamese government, the energy, the whole energy um ministry was there. And um, you know, you had Irina there to also start you know telling them about the best practices of what we've seen happen in other countries. And I think you know, when you when you go into a setting like this, the the kind of I would say the kind of enthusiasm that it creates also in the government and the policymakers is that they they start seeing that this is something that brings together a whole ecosystem to support them in their ambition. Uh, because often, you know, if uh the governments are so busy running day-to-day business that uh they have their own daily crisis to manage. And when you bring together a setting like this, uh then uh you know there there are many open questions uh that start getting resolved. There are challenges that the policymakers are feeling, uh, and um this becomes a platform for them to ask those questions and hear from Irina and from private sector and technology providers on how they have been resolved in other countries. So it's it's a it's these mechanisms that not only give some level of uh comfort, but it also provides them with the credibility that if they are to come out with a strong policy instrument, there will be an ecosystem that would be supportive of taking it forward.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Your Excellency just gave us the example uh of Vietnam that is very rich when it comes to the wind energy. We have also the solar energy that is somehow cheap. When it comes to the global south, taking, for example, Africa, Latin America, still they they remain very low when it comes to the deployment of the wind and solar energy. How do you read this?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

I I think it varies from countries to countries. And uh um if you look at um a belt between the tropics, and it's very interesting when you see this uh um analysis that if you look at the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, and you look at the countries that kind of run through that belt, yeah, uh these are all very, very good solar-rich countries. And uh the fact that the resource hasn't got um utilized, it hasn't it hasn't uh got converted into projects on the ground or on the rooftops of uh people's houses or in the commercial um uh enterprises using this as a resource that's available uh and technology as we know is no more a mystery. Uh technology is fairly now, you know, available for very accessible. But if it hasn't happened, then clearly, you know, there are uh multiple reasons for it. And I would I would say that um you you have to actually look at it in uh at two levels. One is large projects that uh in many countries now we are seeing come in the in the range of thousand megawatt and above projects getting deployed. And those are utility scale projects, which utilities are happy to take in that kind of uh uh electrons into their system. But the other category is um the standalone projects of solar, which can uh which can very well be put in uh rooftops of households, in commercial enterprises, and uh allow them to, you know, to be a source which is complementary to the main grid. But if um you know if this is not happening, then I think it's it's uh uh very important to look at again what is the reason um why this resource is not getting converted with all these you know clear evidence that it's the best. And I think one of the main reasons is for uh the countries to still um depend institutionally very much on baseload um providers of uh electricity which come from whether it's from coal or from um oil and gas, because that's you know, that's uh understood technology, the engineers understand it well, and then they they know that they will not impact their grid because variable power obviously comes with its own challenges. Um but uh apart from that, I think it's again, as I'd mentioned earlier, it's also the cost of capital. And um if these policies have to be supported, then there has to be a you know a clear think about how um you know blended finance is being made available, whether there's uh risk mitigation uh instruments that would become available to these countries to utilize these resources, and um whether concessional roles will be available, because concessional loans uh are something that would really kick start this whole process. On the other more decentralized applications, and we've seen um you know examples from countries where the private sector, which means you know, just citizens of the country, where they were fed up with the high cost, the unreliable electricity that the the electricity provider was providing. And uh one of the big steps that the government did was to say that look, um, we will remove the custom duty. Custom duties, you know, when you import uh the separate them. Yes. So they said, okay, we'll remove the custom duty, and that brought the cost of these um these uh technologies down. So people, uh whether they had a small shop or they were in a small household, they could, you know, install it. The capacity, it's not, again, as I said, it's not rocket science to install it on your home. Uh there are electricians and all who can understand it very easily. And there's enough uh enough uh material available for uh uh uh on the internet to be able to, you know, to learn. So I I think it's it's a mix of the um the government intent really translating from what they have on paper to really supporting them on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

To real life.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

To real life. And and and and I think the time has really come because uh there are so many of these countries which uh uh which can very easily start uh you know generating their own power from their own uh sovereign resources, but more importantly, they will be able to fulfill the aspirations of their citizens and bring them more affordable power.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Your Excellency provided us with some um technical examples that could be implemented in real life easily, um, in that like let's say houses can implement small devices, uh, fix them easily using the internet information. Um but then also we have to think about the infrastructure, which is very essential, that should be provided at the beginning by the government itself. That will help also in sort of like uh converting the power from and to and making the transition happening. So, how are we doing when it comes to the global south? Are governments, let's say, aware of the importance that they should initiate the infrastructure work and then maybe raise the awareness among the people uh to contribute to the overall goals?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

No, absolutely, you know, because um there is so much emphasis on uh generation. So, you know, everyone, because it's very visible. You know, when you put up a large solar uh plant or you have wind generators, you know, these are exciting projects that are coming to life and generating electricity. And they are they are the visible part of it. The invisible part of it are the transmission lines, the distribution lines. And uh often these are um these are I mean, I would really think that governments need to realize that this is as much of your core infrastructure as are um, you know, roads and railway networks and many other things that get considered as uh core core infrastructure. And as is in the case of infrastructure, you know, it has a guest station time. So you start planning for it uh today and then you know it only comes uh comes on and starts uh uh operating maybe five years, seven years, sometimes eight years. Because there are a number of regulations, a number of uh approvals that need to be sought. And um there is also in in some cases you also find that um, for example, transformers, there's a huge cue because there are supply chain issues. So, you know, you cannot be planning on enhancing your generation from renewable energy without considering the investment that needs to go alongside for developing the the transmission and the distribution and the flexibility infrastructure which includes storage. Um just to give you a sense, um at Irena we estimated that we need to do about uh 1.2 trillion US dollars globally needs to go into the development of grid infrastructure, including flexibility and the other measures. And right now, um, you know, we are almost, I think, around doing only half of that. Um and to put this in perspective, um, I I had mentioned that last year we had installed about 700 gigawatts of renewable energy projects, which was a record. But what if I tell you that globally there are 2,500 gigawatts of renewable energy projects that are waiting to get connected into the grid? So this is the scale of the challenge. And uh, you know, there are uh even out of the 2500, if we say that some of them, you know, may not actually uh fructify. But if even 60 or 70 percent of them are fairly advanced, then it tells you that are there's a lag between um you know the generation planning and the uh grid planning. And this kind of a connection gap. This this should not be for us to think about you know how we want to see the future. Um so I think there is there is this um real need to step up on the planning for these resources to get put. But um we also think that you know for many years this uh has been uh kind of a um, I would say less visible sector, and it needs to be um enhanced in its visibility and the urgency of uh looking at these aspects, which um is something that again Irina is trying to do with uh with all the new publications that we've come. In fact, there's a recent uh publication that we just launched on electrification. Um and I'd just like to add actually at the COP31, which is happening at uh Turkey, um the COP presidency has announced that they would like to pursue the target of 35 by 35. And that means that right now, globally, we are about um electrific at uh uh we if you look at the economies and the the um total final energy consumption that comes from electricity is about 22, 23 percent. So what he's really asking for is to step up this to go to 35 percent by three-five. And it all you know comes together from what we were talking about, uh, the end use sectors coming in, the data centers that need more electricity, the need to actually also bridge this regional divide where a lot of countries in uh in the global south are not uh moving as fast as we would want to see on the renewable energy transition. Um so all these, you know, they they have now started coming together. Um and I think it's it's important for uh a robust grid infrastructure to go alongside and to complement all the generation planning that is happening.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Your Excellency, you covered the aspect of the national power generation, which is for sure very central here. But also there is another um side of the coin that we have to look at, which is the clean cooking that should be used in hospitals, schools, houses, and will definitely contribute much to um lowering the carbon emissions worldwide and helping the the whole globe to move towards uh clean energy. So, how do you evaluate the situation in the global south, especially in Africa or Central Asia, for example?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

You know, unfortunately, um when you when you talk to the energy ministries, they're so caught up in the larger challenges of providing uh energy um the shape infrastructure and you know um getting large generation plants up and running, that often this becomes kind of marginalized because uh it it's it's kind of treated as a welfare function, um, like uh like a function that has implications on health. So n the energy ministries are not able to wrap their heads around it. Um some of the countries what they have done is realize that there is this issue and made it a part of their development agenda. And where that has happened, you you've seen a lot of progress happening because uh it's it's um something that needs to walk alongside the the development goals that the country has set. Um I I think on on the clean cooking, there's a huge scope. And uh, you know, with uh with this uh crisis that we saw of the global uh supply chains in in energy, um a lot of countries actually started looking at so it's not just the rural households, but uh you know, even the urban households started looking at uh induction-based cooking and um cooking through electricity as as a solution that would help them, you know, tide the challenge of uh uh the shortage of uh cooking gas, for example. But this becomes much more um much more critical when we're looking at the uh rural areas where mostly it's biomass that gets used, which of course has its uh very detrimental impact on the health of the women and the children. But more importantly, you know, there's so much time that gets spent to just get those fuels. Uh whereas this is a solution which is available and you can, you know, have local decentralized solar solutions working on DC and uh you know available for clean cooking solutions. Uh but I think the gap really has been that you know governments haven't put out good packages for providing um uh the right kind of subsidies that would incentivize people to switch from biomass to um cooking solutions on, say, for example, renewable energy-based uh electricity. Uh I I think it's it's really um uh area that we've been speaking for so long on, but uh you know, solutions are very slow in coming. But I I think this is changing now because um the the the cooking solutions have now been customized and adopted. And I think you know, once these are available, the upfront cost can be taken care of through EMIs. I mean it's it's like how we buy consumer goods. So once it comes into that consumer goods cycle, then you will see a lot more um offtake of this. And I think that's that's also, you know, I I just want to take you back to the you know the earlier point we were talking about household solutions uh also. All these need to become, you know, your very, very um normal EMI-based solutions. So you should be able to go on these large uh marketplaces and just order them and get someone to come in and install on EMI and with you know easy finance available. That's when the shift will happen. And and I think for clean cooking, it's really waiting for that uh kind of a shift. And wherever the countries have been actively engaged in uh you know in commoditizing it, that's where the shifts happen.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Your Excellency, what I really like about uh the discussion um about renewable energy is that there are always new technologies coming up. One of them is the hydrogen frontier, uh, which is also a great venue for the South-South cooperation um alongside the global south countries. So, how do you see the future in this regard?

SPEAKER_01 35:12

I I think um, you know, there was a big hype a few years back on hydrogen. Uh, and you know, the whole world was talking about hydrogen as being the panacea and the you know the technology that would solve all the problems, whether it's flexibility or storage or whatever else. Um that hype has died down, but what now you see is a much more steady kind of an interest that it has led to, which is much more solid. So you have investors, you have developers, you have technology providers, you have governments coming together to build a much more robust kind of a base for moving ahead with this uh um hydrogen technology. I I feel that um by 2030 we will start seeing some uh clear areas where hydrogen will become competitive. And I'm I'm expecting that in that decade of 20s to 30s, we will see so many other applications come through. Um we all know that hydrogen will be very important for transport. Uh it will be also uh for the long distance transport, so it'll it can really change that whole industry. But apart from that, you know, we are also looking at hydrogen to be the solution for steel, for hard-to-obate sectors, and uh, you know, for uh these um large manufacturing processes, large industrial processes to get reshaped by the introduction of uh green hydrogen as it uh comes in. So it's it's uh you know, I I would say that right now most of the the deals that have happened, the transactions that have got finalized are bilateral transactions. So it's between two countries. And that then, you know, uh in many cases, the countries could be the uh countries from the global south. Uh and you know, you you might have this view that look, um, why should uh Namibia be producing all the hydrogen only for um for Germany, for example, and not have uh um its own energy access concerns met. So I think the governments um of the global south also need to bring in that balance. So you have a, you know, it's it's quite clear it's a valuable resource that you want to export and earn foreign exchange on. But at the same time, it's it's also leads to a uh institutional understanding of how this resource can actually be not just uh manufactured or you know uh catalyzed, or uh rather I would say, you know, how how it has to be dealt with in terms of how it has to be uh stored, how it has to be transported to the ports or through pipelines and across the shipping. So all these uh elements will allow those countries to create that kind of an ecosystem that they, you know, if their policies are right, they can also certainly use it for bringing the benefits to their own country, whether it's it's in terms of indust helping the industrial processes or transforming their own uh you know their own uh transport sector, for example.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

For their own national projects.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Correct. So it there has to be that balance. I mean, I I I would really say that this is an important technology frontier and uh you know would help create a lot of local jobs, but also a lot of local capacity and understanding of a completely new technology. But it has to be also used for uh to ensure that there is a strong stream of benefits that flows into the national and domestic product.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Your Excellency, reaching towards the end of this episode, the future global commitments by governments, um, technology providers, industrial companies, the people themselves to save the planet. So, what are you going to leave us with in terms of advice?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

You know, I I think um we have a lot to be optimistic about. We we have uh um, I would say, a very strong political commitment that has shown through in so many ways, in so many commitments, whether it is targets on tripling the renewable energy or doubling the energy efficiency that happened at the uh the 28th COP at in UA, or it's it's about um making sure that their own national policies are actively looking at becoming um very much aligned with the new sources of uh energy that they want the country to move forward with. But you know, this is such a huge transition that we are talking about. Probably one of the largest transitions that we will see in our life lifetime. And you know, we've seen many, we've seen the internet, we've seen so many a telecom and all that. But this is something that will impact again, it will impact the lives of everyone. And um in in a in a paradigm like this, you do need uh uh an understanding that it doesn't happen with one or two or three stakeholders. So the the main issue will be how do you enhance and how do you enlarge your constituency to understand um you know the implications of what is being planned by governments, by um, you know, and uh how the technology is moving. Uh that kind of a larger ecosystem, larger awareness has to actually play its part. I I mean what happens is normally, you know, I uh I think um all of us who are interested in this space, we tend to talk amongst ourselves. So we are in some kind of an echo chamber, and we have to move out of our own comfort zones and start speaking to the actors, the players outside our comfort zone to make sure that we are constitute uh you know we are continuously expanding our scope because this is an economy-wide transition that we are talking about. You know, the the finance ministries have to be talking about it, the um, you know, the industries have to be talking about it, the transport people have to be talking about it, people on urban affairs have to be talking about it, because that's when this can actually get added into uh that momentum and that power that we want to see uh as we know move forward towards net zero. Uh I I think the very important um uh element in all this is definitely innovation. And I'm very optimistic about um the kind of things that you're seeing the young people, the youth getting involved in. And that's again a something that we need to be uh you know very excited about and um very optimistic about. But these, you know, these um uh these kinds of uh innovations that are coming from them have to be supported. We all know there's a this value of death between a good idea and for it to reach the marketplace. And there needs to be an understanding that we need to support them to make that journey. But that's also the case for you know many, I would say, um not just uh youth that are actively engaged, but uh the there are um the parliamentarians, for example, who need to also be aware of which direction the the frameworks, the legal frameworks have to be shaped in. And uh I'm I mean I I just think that we need to understand that this is not something that only the energy ministries will be able to deliver. Uh this requires a much larger constituency, a constituency with that awareness, that motivation, and the willingness to take the next steps to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Your Excellency, it was an incredible masterclass, I would say, another conversation. So thank you so much for being with us in the Global Southing Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Thank you so much for inviting me. It was a pleasure being here with you. The pleasure is ours. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

As we wrap up today's episode of the Global Southing Podcast, uh let's highlight here that the green transition and renewable energy present long-term opportunities, but equity must be maintained. Thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a friend. Until next time.