SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to Global Southern Podcast. Hanad Mohassan, I'm very pleased to have you with us here in the Global Southing podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Thank you, Najda. It's always amazing to have you and it will I'm sure it will be a great and we'll enjoy the discussion.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Let's start with the evolution, the very essential idea of excellence and government leadership. The idea has been imported, to be, I mean, very honest together at the beginning of the conversation. The idea has been imported from the West. So it's more of like a Western model that we try to understand and then maybe comprehend it. And then thinking how we can apply it, modify it towards the global south. So, how do you find the evolution?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Well, thank you very much for raising this question. And I think that takes me back through the um journey that I had during my work. And um I was very lucky to be honest too, because I started working in a in a field which has so much of relevance to this evolution, which is the energy field. I would say if I go back and 22 years back, actually, when they when I started, as you said, many companies, specifically from the region and the global south, you know, um area, they would always try to, you know, emulate and even copy the uh templates for the mature economies. So they would go and you know follow, in our case the NOCs, you know, they will go follow the main uh international NOCs and they do what they their, I mean, they will copy their style in leadership and governance and then then they will take it. And it it used to work at that time. And I have to say at that back in the time there was not much of awareness and consciousness about even the terms of leadership or governance. So if I take the word governance by itself in a very simple way, governance is a framework of how any decision has to be made. So that means that you need to learn about the processes, the guidelines, and isn't even the practices for a society or a nation or even um a company to how to direct, manage, and control their activities. And um back in the time and the governance, as I mentioned, it was copied, and now it's uh really that the rules has been changed. So back in the time uh we used to copy the rules, and now we're becoming the rule makers.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

And why is this? Because it all works for the national interests, for the local content, as well as also for the growth of the economies, and also to be able to pivot in any kind of conditions that can happen with ways and methods that they can adapt to these local economies. So let me take you to something interesting. I read two days back, and I know you are a big fan. You know, you are one of the main uh points or focal points that to ask about China in the UAE. And Chinese government, about two days, two days back exactly, they issued a white paper. It's called uh Global Governance, The Road to an Equitable and Just Governance for the Global South. And, you know, China is the most prominent, you know, country in the global south. What was this white paper about? It's about 50 pages, but the main things that they were speaking about, it can really drive us to know the kind of definition of what the governance for the global south can be. And they are taking it into three pillars. So the first pillar is to have a just monopolarity in the world. That means that moving or the having this shift from um uh Western-centric or unipolar, you know, systems, world order, and to have a more shared, you know, universal. Exactly, universal, you know, decision making with multiple global hubs, and all and all of them have to be under the, you know, they have to be anchored by the uh United Nations Charter and the international law. And that's the first pillar. And the second one, if you go for it, it's calling for a financial equity. And this is, as you know, to go It's much needed. It's much needed, and it's the one which really the global south countries needs because at the very beginnings, like institutions like the IMF and the World Bank, they didn't have that much quota or even voting power for the or representation even from leadership from the developing countries, and they took decisions on their behalf. But what China is really trying to do with this uh with this initiative is to have more power, more place, and more platform for the global south to be main decision makers, in order that the decision that will be taken will be in the favor of these countries. And if we go to the third pillar, which is a very essential thing that we see every day now, is the innovation take innovation inclusion. So, what does that mean? Like with all these new frontiers and AI in a space, you see there is a lot of sometimes restrictions and bans and sometimes like monopolies that they have isolated this kind of benefits of this technologies with a few, with with just a few P like few powers. So, what they call is that the global South country should be part of this, the global south country should be able to have the benefits of this, and they have to be treated equally with these benefits, and there is no more monopolies or any kind of isolation on that. So, yeah, China has initiated this two days back, and if it takes us to um to reflection is what you see now with the very many changes that happened this year, maybe this year is like the year of change for everybody, but it's even for the kind of governance that has been taken through for the last five uh five uh for the last five or ten years.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

You mentioned many points, Hanan, here. Um some of them could be tackled, managed somehow, gradually, hopefully in the future, while others still um remain um more of like a challenging reality for us. You mentioned the idea of banning censorship, and this is would somehow um be an obstacle for us to to reach that level of excellence, especially with the digital media right now, the public opinion, the public diplomacy here. So, how can we at least um take into consideration the importance that countries, regulations, governments not to ban um access to information or ban expression of ideas, for us to to have a good considerable uh amount of data uh to reach that level of global leadership and global excellence, especially from generated from the global south.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

This is a very important point, and that goes back to me to the kind of the clearance of terms and definitions. Because when you mention the word AI first, many people are seeing that it's this is gonna take their jobs. You know, AI is gonna take my job, you know. AI is uncontrollable. I cannot control AI, and they think about cybersecurity and the attacks. And I think, and and you will be surprised, many, many governments, especially still from the global south, since we are talking about global south, they have so much of uh kind of restrictions because of such things happening. And I have to say, coming again from uh from an industry that had gradually, you know, I mean, taken this, one of the most important things is the clearance of definitions and terms and awareness of that. And the second thing is regulatory. So regulations. So and the first thing is you have to understand any technology that will come, it's it's neutral. If you remember, and I'm sure you have even experienced this, I remember when I was in the high school in the 90s, you know, and the internet started to break through, and all the services, everybody was having this old modems and wired, you know, and they have sent, you know, I mean, to go modems exactly to connect. And I remember that time, so much so many people, families, and even in the press in the UAE at that point, that they were like, there was there we should be kind of, you know, you know, there was a kind of not fear, but more kind of um people were not really ready for that. People would not even know what what is this about, you know. And I remember one of my um relatives, he used to be, you know, he used to he used to be one of the first people to use internet, I think, in the country. And he's been using it in in at work. And what he mentioned to me when I said to him, like, my family won't get us the internet because of the, you know, because we will not really, it it will not serve us well, and then it we will we ever anybody can even attack us at that point. And he what he mentioned to me, well, you know, Hanan, technologies are always neutral. It just depends on how you use it and how you regulate it. So it's the usage and regulations. So I think by giving this kind of clearance to these, you know, to the to the governments, to the institutions, is that you have to talk to them and just say to them that listen, yes, it is a technology that can be harmful, but if you learn about the benefits of it, it can it can do wonders for you. The kind of information of abundance abundance of information that that we have now. Uh the kind of services that we have because of the, you know, because of the digital services. And other thing I would really even look at it is the regulation, but the regulation part, which has to be taken under the umbrella of governance, is to make sure that we have kind of um take like what the UA is doing now, actually, for for IAI Fenticino companies, they made a kind of um, you know, sandboxes, you know, regularity, you know, uh units like ADGM in Abu Dhabi, like DIFC in Dubai, and they have provided like a safe and more kind of monitored, you know, or controlled, you know, um area uh for or zone for these companies where they can practice their growth and they can test their safety. So they can really come out then and after this can be, and then the comp the government or even the other institutions can take their uh you know services and then apply it to that. So it's about regulations. You have to have a clear regulations, you have to make sure data privacy is uh is managed and controlled, and you have to make sure that the algorithms are strictly audited. Once you have frameworks and regulations in place and laws, then you reach the excellence. Then you are you are managing your managing it.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Hanan, you just mentioned that there are certain elements to reach that global excellence and achieve the global leadership generated from the global south. But at the end of the day, we are living in a very dynamic region. We are facing global crises, wars, uh shocks, um, macroeconomic shocks. So, how can we make sure that we establish the right um internal operational resilience here within the global south for us to mitigate uh these risks?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Um I think this question came at the right time at the current conflict that happened in the Gulf, you know. And what everybody has really learned from this is one of the main things is that um if you don't have really pre-planning and if you are not proactive, you will not be able to survive it. And let's take a look about the closure of Straito Formus. What happened is the whole world was depending on a major energy supply and it didn't happen. But since even we talk about this, it takes us to a really fact that how much the world is still really dependable on hydrocarbons, and how much all these words and all these you know initiatives and all these decisions about having um you know a diverse you know energy resources, still this conflict takes us to the fact that the economy, the whole economy, global economy, can stop because of the uh of the you know closure of one of one. Yes, exactly. So what I can say on this is that that takes us to the planning, that takes us to a vision and takes us to the leadership. So if we don't have enough planning and enough and enough clearance of how these things can can of such scenarios can happen, if you don't calculate the risks and even imagine scenarios of the things that they will happen, I don't think we can even survive any crisis. And let's really face it, when it comes to the global south, and we're talking here about you know Africa, Asia, as well as also South America, most of the most of the kind of you know crisis if they happen, they hit three, two, uh three, four times than the normal, you know, mature markets. So I'll take you from the time of 2008, and at that time we started actually the constructions for the ETCO project. And ETCO project was meant as a kind of case for a pre-planning. And it was uh a visionary, uh a visionary, you know, uh a visionary look outlook from the country in order to have an alternative uh route for uh for uh oil for for oil rather than the transit, the the the marine transit, which is through the Strait of Formos. And what happened at that point is that that we were even questioning like what's the what's the use of having you know a pipeline from Hapshan to Fujaira? And what will it do? By the way, it's about 400 kilometers, yeah, you know, and and we thought it's gonna carry about 1.5 uh million you know barrels per day. But the project went on and it was even launched or commissioned in 2012. And when the crisis now happened, and I don't think many people knew even about this pipeline, you know, the normal people, not the people in the industry. Now you understand the importance of this. So having having the idea of being proactive, ready, ready, and even visionary enough to understand, and not even act like like you are away from the your geopolitical risks or even any disruptions. Disruptions will always happen, challenges will happen, uh markets will will collapse at some point. And I think if the last 20 years of my experience, you know, soing many, many, even many crises happened globally. You know, to 2008, you know, the financial crisis, and then after this we had COVID, and now we're having this now the conflict that happened recently in the Gulf. I think if that they taught us something to always to always be ready. And I I would call the leadership, you know, and the lead uh the leadership in this country, they always said that there will always be crisis, but will always be solutions for that. But they say this because they already thought about it. Yeah. So pre-planning, pre-thought, and also pre-uh you know, calculation for these risks will help. The other thing is the main thing also I want to say is the energy security part now. If you think about and specifically under the governance, energy security means that you need to have many, you in just reflecting on that, you know, I mean, a crisis is that you will have always to think of diversify your energy resources and also your supply chain. So if we don't really look at this from these two points, I think you will always be stuck. It's like you're having a car, uh Najla. If you're having a car and you have you don't have a spare tire, and then once at once upon a time in your highway, one of the tires pops, and you don't have a spare uh spare tire, and you don't even have the tools, what you will do? You are you'll just stand up stuck and then and then wait for the help from somewhere, which will never happen. But either way, what is the pre-planning or pre-thoughtless? Like, yes, I have a car, and it might one of the one of the tires will pop out or goes flat, you know, at some point. So what you do is that you have a spare parts with you, and as well as also you have a spare tire. That's exactly the example of of a good governance when it comes to such you know um issues which we are talking about.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

But Hanan, for us to have the pre-planning, as you mentioned, for the global south, we should have a proper stakeholder engagement. You have been dealing with many sea level executives, ministers, uh directors, um from the public, government, private sector even, and um technology providers perhaps. So with these different interests uh being presented on the table, how can we bring them though all when every single person on the table has his or her own interest to be um achieved and managed by let's say with certain milestones. So, how do you describe the stakeholder management with the global south? How are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, the stakeholder management in the global south is your key to to shortcut many things, many, many times, many, many, uh, many many bureaucratic, you know, I mean uh processes. And you can gain this. I would I would say from from what I have seen is actually by 20, 30 percent, you know, you will you will you will you will execute what you want if you own if you know how to manage your stakeholders in the right way. And if you have the right kind of I would not say connections, but I would say the right network of people. But how this all starts is by taking all those people, whether they are in the C level or in the in the in the in any level at the companies or even from the stakeholders ty uh uh side, you have to understand that they are humans, that they have needs and they hold pressures and they have many things. So behind the titles that you see is a huge pressure, huge responsibility and accountability. And you have to reach this kind of point with them. They understand what really, what do they really want, what will make what will make their work actually go faster, easier, and more actually beneficial to the to the functions they are doing. So I think that's the first thing. You have to go to the humans behind the titles, behind and you have to treat everyone in the same. To be honest with you, with dealing with many stakeholders now, I see the people that they work behind the scenes more useful than anyone on the on the front, from my experience.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Useful in terms of you know you know details, information or experience or it's it's actually usually more for even understanding issues in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

I would say they will give you the clear picture and they will give you the kind of the the the the key the key elements that they you need to know in order to set to satisfy their requirements. So it will be easier actually to deal with this. But even the those on the C level, and I have to say once you break to their kind of the people behind the titles, they're behind their titles, you will understand that they they just need you as much as you need them. And if I look at this, for example, you mentioned about different sectors, how we can bring different sectors together. So if I look, for example, if I understand the kind of mentality of the private sector, they work on speed of execution. They are interested in, you know, the button line, they call it the button line returns, the fast returns, you know. And also they are also about the capital efficiency. This is mainly that they were looking for. And if you go to the public sector, they are more interested in the long-term, for example, public trust. They are looking for a policy stability. They're even looking of a ways to how to have a quality regulation, not just regulations. So usually the kind of a span of a speed in the in the first one in the private goes faster, and in the in the in the public or the government it goes slower. So what you do is actually to invent something called a shared value nexus. So how to meet, how to how to make both meets in the same time. And by the way, that goes on the same also on the same perspective with the technology companies, they actually act even faster than the private. So what they do is that you take the kind of quality skills and even the objectives of the private sector or technology, you know, I mean, sector, and what you do is trying to make it the driver for the main milestones that the that the public uh sector is doing. So by doing this, you are actually putting them all together.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Matching.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

You are matching them, and you at the same time you you shorten this the time, you shorten the effort, and you make sure that everybody understands where they really stand on. Okay? So I think that's that's the right way, or that's the way I th uh that really worked with me actually so far. And what I perceived is that will even make things easier and even shorten, you know, for the for the long term. Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Hanan, for us to reach that level of a global excellence generated from the global south to the rest of the world and have the global south leadership, we cannot really achieve it without having ladies, um, including yourself, I think is a great example in the whole process of decision made making at the global level. So, to what extent do you find that ladies are truly present at that excellent level of you know leadership?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I think that women has achieved already a lot when it comes to their rights to even to reach certain, you know, titles, certain jobs, certain titles. And they already proven themselves. I don't think that they have to prove themselves more. But I think it's the right time to define the potentials regardless of what you are, a woman or a man. And I think that will push even more women to be in the workplace and even to the workforce. So what I am talking about is if you look at the statistics, okay, globally, women they go between 40 to 48% of the workforce. And once you go up in the ladder of the, you know, of your career, I mean, if you go to the sea level, for example, they will only represent currently about 25%. And if that's something, is that there are two ways of understanding that. There are things from because of the current regulations, you know, that they are in place. There are still many, many, many, many things to be done specifically in the ground. global south actually to put women in in charge of leadership. But the other way, other other, other side, which I have seen it in my life also is many women, even if they, you know, specialized in in technical and STEM, you know, or AI, or even went to this very hardcore, very hard technical, you know, uh jobs, they always they always have to question the the they have to question themselves about the work-life balance. And you and me knows there is nothing called work-life balance. If you start working your potentials so I think that what would this is this is one of the main reasons you would see them like go back. Even if the opportunity is in front of them, they will try to they will try to go under, you know, they will try to even not take the opportunity. I from a personal experience when it comes to what I have seen I would say that at some point I really forgot I'm a woman I'm a woman. And that I used to defy the kind of rules and you know the kind of restrictions that they have happened to women by asking what was the reason I cannot do that. What was the reason I cannot be in that position. And I would really make I would even trouble the person in front of me about this. So I think if you need something badly you can have it. You just have to have the intention. You just have to have and I think many women should understand that and with the kind of climate that we have now I believe the existence or even presence of more women in even into decision making is very essential. And I take it from not only from the kind I I believe all everybody is intelligent, women or men. They all we all have the smart we all are smart we're all intelligent but women have this kind of skills of emotional intelligence means understanding how to not only to drive actually initiatives how to have the right passion and even right the right drive to do it. They take it so personally they take it as it's like it's my family or it's my own house or it's on my own project. It's not it's my baby project. Exactly it's my baby I mean I have to do it. And they are and and and and also goes back to some thing which nature gave us is about this kind of kindness and passion about and care for others. And I think one of the things that the world lacks now is is really taking care of humans to take care of humans. We talk about technology all the time we talk about how to invest in technology whatever we are really still have to invest a lot in the human mental health and social aspect. Yes big time if the general the general kind of atmosphere now is toxicity and pressure and depression. But I'm talking about the region when it comes to you know the global south but even regional you know we we still have this we have great achievements but we need to really work in that because at the end even the technology that we invest in why do we invest it? Because we need to make sure that it will make humans happy so I think this kind of assurance and this kind of you know push can come really from women they have to work hard for that they still have we still have to work hard and luckily in some countries in the global south they have really passed through this like they have really achieved a lot in this they don't need even they they don't even need this but I think going back even if you the thing that even if you have the opportunities do not take it for granted and I have to say this to all my fellow women do not take this this for granted this was a very long road of hardships, efforts from and sacrifices from many women before you and even men who stood with you the good news is if you look at even at the statistics is some uh the neuro renewable energies they represent the highest percentage for working women and even decision maker women so they are about 32% they are the highest percentage in all fields worldwide.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

And this is could be a point that we can ask the audience to to share their opinions. So do we have to change the mindset here of the ladies themselves or we have to change the whole infrastructure to accept more and more ladies at the global excellence level of leadership.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

But can I can I go back to this if if you if you change the if you change the mentality internally first before you change the infrastructure will change. So I always say start with the minds side with the mindsets and then with both by the way of men or women because I have to say some some women also they lack this kind of you know capabilities they lack this kind of sight you know I mean oversight on that. So once you change this the infrastructures will come. It will have to come it will have to come Hanan looking forward um when thinking of the global south in terms of branding ourselves at the level of a global leadership global excellence what do we need to do more for us to do more of like the marketing proper marketing um there are there is a huge potential within the global south to lead on different aspects and we are already leading but perhaps we are lacking the the good strategy for branding ourselves what do you think I think that goes back even again to the idea which we think which we were talking about about mindset okay um in the past as we mentioned in the beginning that we were talking about emulating or even copying you know these uh templates from the mature markets so that time we were you know rules takers it's changed now we are rule makers we have and and we have all the kind of you know aspects and even potentials for that we have the resources we have the assets we have the uh human you know human factors we have the technology factors we just have to make sure that we have the right policies and regulations that they can regulate this to have it under the right govern governments we will need actually to write the uh blueprint for our dem for a future where it's sustainable bright and where our goods can be compete globally we have this we just have to move and we have to go in that direction we are already ready we don't have any kind of uh lack in terms of any of the the aspects which I mentioned I think when it comes to the global south we have a great nation that they can play an example now when it comes to writing the blueprint for their sustainable and bright future we are seeing the countries of the BRICS we're seeing um here in the JCC region and we are seeing also in Brazil and some other nations in South Africa for example I think they have really played a very important role in order to push this to push our you know the global south to the you know global arena but that doesn't mean that there is and many other countries they're still having like they they have potentials they have the success stories and they have even the good resources and but they are still not even in the in the in the global arena in the terms of you know in in terms of the same level of the other of the ones which we mentioned and I think that goes back to the decision making and governance so one of the main reasons in order to go to to to jump to this to even to do this shift is to have the right decision making is to have the right laws and regulations and also to be able to have a a long-term plan in order to how to utilize this how to utilize their resources their capacities and even and even they can take the the examples and even the lessons from the other countries in the same region in the global south that they have already been achieved achieved you know achieved that so in in in my case I think that um maybe one of the main reasons also uh nejla is what I've seen some of the countries in the global south that they have like new discoveries for hydrocarbons you know for fuels one of the main things that they have restrictions they had at the very beginning is that from institutions like the IMF and World Bank they were not even able to have a kind of a a green um like a green sign in order to go for uh operations and even to to use these resources because of sustainability because of the uh environment and um but and that's why there is some changes has to happen even in these institutions but then how you expect these nations to grow if they don't even have the they have these revenues actually back. So if you want them to go to the sustainable line then you need to be able to help them to invest even in their hydrocarbons for example and make sure that that they will do this they will operate it with the maximum actually protection for environment and net zero you know emissions and then after this what they do with the revenues of this they would take it back to the public to their public funds or their domain you know sovereign funds and be able actually to create other alternative ways in order to save uh you know the in uh to to to you know to to be on the align with the sustainability you know I mean actually goals. So yes the problem is not only from these nations it's also also from the institutions. I think there should be a shift uh from both ways from the decision making levels as well as also the international you know institutions should give a kind of a break for these countries. I mean if you look at Europe for example Najra it took us 200 years of industrial revolution they have consumed coal they have consumed oil they have consumed everything and same with the USA and then and then now actually they are they are actually part of this you know I mean actually agreements that no we have to have renewables we have to go for green energy which is yeah great but you already because of these hydrocarbon chains at the beginning you already have the infrastructure to be able actually to be to to use the renewables you know and um one of the good things also to think about is to even increase the investments in technology. So if you were able to put more investments in this you will eventually be able to have the right uh infrastructures and then after that decision making can come in place. So I think that's the way uh forward and I would still say that let's really face it we are not anymore uh our rules you know takers we are in the global south and I consider myself you know from the global south myself and I would say we are rule takers we should be the rule makers we should be the rule makers and we we even we even cover region that is like even more global more than the the mature developed exact more developed actually this and thank God actually back in the past the the kind of terms and I said to you terms really work on the logic and work even on the kind of you know way you think about things.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

You remember back in the time after the World War II if you read about after World War II and even after 1990 there's still all these economies used to be they called poor you know developing countries or even underdeveloped underdeveloped and sometimes they would fragile state exactly um I heard it even in a huge in a very renowned institution I was having a lecture in a very renowned institution you know and the lecturer said oh these poor countries he called it poor countries and I had to jump and I say no they are not poor countries they are poorly managed countries but they are not poor they have all the assets and resources it's just that we we can they they don't know how to manage it or or or do the governance on it you know and he was just stunned by that and I said yeah that's the reality so changing these kind of terms and now thank god we still have the global south okay I would just say I will call it the great force I would say the global force because it's just a row land it's just a raw societies that they want actually to grow so we really think about it in this way they're gonna be the upcoming force I think the cycle will go back now to this part of the planet and we have as I mentioned all the um we have all the uh we have all the potentials in this and and we have the human you remember we still have the human factor huge population a huge population that with the right education with the right infrastructure of governments you know and and also with the right direction capacity building exactly capacity building and leadership you will see wonders you will you will even see wonders and yeah let's take it from there thank you so much Hanan for being with us I enjoyed the discussion uh it was a very insightful conversation when it comes to global leadership it was very lovely also hearing your experiences and the transition that we made in the global south I mean from the uh for the generation of the 1990s until now uh so thank you so much for your time Hanan thank you Najla and I hope that we can just build up from this and and learn you know how to really be just just be proud of where you are from and be be be always like look at the future with the eyes of you know um optimism and inshaAllah it will really actually shine it will thank you thank you you've been listening to Global Southern Podcast