SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today we address a foundational topic of human dignity, economic stability, and national sovereignty, food security and the global south. For decades, the narrative surrounding food across developing regions was framed through the narrow lens of foreign aid and emergency handouts. To help us chart this course, I'm very delighted to be joined by Dr. Ahmed Mukhtar, a world-class authority on food security and agricultural policy, currently serving as the FAU sub-regional representative. Dr. Ahmed Mukhtar, welcome to Global Southing Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Let's start with the very essential idea of food security. So, can you explain it more for us? Because recently, I mean for the past decade, we have been listening a lot and hearing the term food security. What does it mean? What are the key pillars here?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Absolutely. Uh first and foremost, we should uh let's say demystify one thing. Food security does not mean food sovereignty. It does not mean that we have to produce each and everything in one country or you know a region, because that is uh naturally impossible. So, in our definition, food security has four main pillars. First is the availability of the food, that food should be available at all times for everyone. But second is the access to the food. Access means that all of the citizens in a country, for example, should be able to access the food as well. Third is the utilization, that even when they access the food, they should utilize in a way, and that leads to a bit of the nutrition part as well. Uh that, for example, in some countries the food or the caloric intake is more than 40% only by the carbohydrates or the breads. So that is the utilization. And fourth pillar is the stability, that having available, accessible, and utilized food more in a stable form. Only then one would say that you know we have a level of food security. That is why when we calculate the level of food insecurity, all of those pillars are uh sort of assessed, and then we see if any pillar is a bit down, then the other ones, uh, we have to, you know, alert or uh report on that. Uh so to sum up, food security does not mean food sovereignty, does not mean that everything has to be produced, but everything should be available and accessible most importantly.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

But when thinking of the first two pillars, the availability and the access to food, um, thinking of the global south, there is sort of an inequality here because the availability of food may not necessarily be uh secured in most of the countries, uh, but still they can access food from a neighboring country or by imported food. So, does this mean that the food um should be produced within the country so that we have the food security?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Not really. Um that's why I said that if you look at uh the current situation in the world, uh theoretically speaking, no more than 22 countries can produce each and everything that they need in the case of food. All others have to, you know, do one or the other imports. So trade is an essential part of the food security and the food availability. But when we say access to the food, I think it is mostly once you have the food in the country, whether the population and particularly the lower strat of the population, if they can access the food, because you you can very well understand the social um you know problems, the the policies and so on and so forth, uh normally do not, let's say, afford the lower strat of the population to get a food that is available and that should be available uh at a relatively low price. I'll give you an example that if, as per our latest research, a good healthy diet in let's say Arab region would cost US dollar 3.78 per person per month. Now, if you have on average a family of five, you know, a very minimal family, just imagine the cost of having the affordable healthy diet, uh, how many people can afford that? I mean, more than 60 to 70 percent of the population will be right away out of this affordability thing. So that is where we need to do the access. But from a South perspective, as you said, yes, that actually leads to, and I I believe we will have a discussion on this one, how can we cooperate on the food security? That is the key over here, not just trade. So I will qualify the words that yes, you do trade, but how do you cooperate on food security? That is more important.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

But then we have to balance between, I mean, the local production within a country and the international trade, as you mentioned. So, given your extensive background in the work of food security, how can the policymakers and governments worldwide make that balance?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

It is uh a very dynamic balance, and if you allow me to give a few examples to clarify that. Let's start from Arab region, you know, a country that is big in terms of population. I'm referring to the Egypt. Uh Egypt, as you know, has a very minimal agriculture base due to you know only the Nile as a source of water, uh, and a large part of the country is a desert one. And Egypt is has a growing population as well. Egypt is the largest wheat importer in the world because they have to feed. Now, theoretically speaking, Egypt can produce all of the wheat that it wants. But what rather than that, what it is doing is that it is producing half of that, and half it is importing, and the other land is utilized for growing the fruits and vegetables. As you know, Egypt is one of the largest uh in the you know uh southern countries, uh no, even in the south, global south, one of the largest exporters of uh horticulture products. So the the policy choice is that Egypt is earning from 10 to 12 billion US dollars per year from exports of the fruits and vegetables and then importing a wheat for three billion dollars. This is what I call the policy choice. Uh when we go to, let's say, countries like Brazil or Argentina, big in cereals, so they're focusing more and more on the cereals and uh uh dairy and you know the livestock meat and so on and so forth, and they don't care much about you know the so-called fine agriculture products, and even they do import, you know, some of the products. So, as a policymaker, I would say that it is a very dynamic choice as a country that you have to do. And that is why in the first part I said please do not think food security from a food sovereignty perspective, but how do you manage a balance? Because food security, by the way, has to be linked with your fiscal space as well. You cannot do each and everything. In some countries, um there is this uh drive towards having the self-sufficiency, but at the cost of fiscal space. Uh, you have to do quite a lot of subsidies, investments, and so on and so forth. And one has to see whether that was essential or there is an alternative way out. Now, for the alternatives, um, people say that you know you are never sure about the global markets, whether they are available, accessible, and we saw very recent episodes of starting with you know the COVID and then the Black Sea crisis and the Gulf crisis and all of that. But even then, even then, the evidence as of now suggests that you still can rely on the global marketplace if you have uh the well-diversified uh sources of imports and so and these type of things. So it's a dynamic balance, it's like I call a matrix type of thing that you have to redesign almost every month.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

But with having that balance and these techniques, strategies, mechanisms, still people are starving worldwide. Um, I'm referring to a recent um foul state of food security and nutrition in the world report, um, which was released in 2024, which is very recent. So approximately 700 733 million people globally still facing uh hunger. So, does the balance work? What's needed more? I mean, to at least manage this essential need uh that is very urgent for the survival of the people.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Absolutely true. Um and out of that, of course, uh about two uh between 200 to 250 are in acute food insecurity situation, almost like you know, catastrophic. Now, one thing we have to understand, uh, and there are a few stark, let's say, realities that we also have to absorb. This number has been increasing for the last few years, unfortunately. Uh while if we understand the SDG2, the Sustainable Development Goal 2 asks for zero hunger by 2030. And we are going downwards, in fact, you know, in that one. If you look at the overall food production in the world as of now, it can feed all of that. So it is not the uh non-availability of the food at the global level.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

So it's not the issue of food production, you mean?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

No, it's not the production.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

And what is that the issue?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

The issue is distribution. The issue is the affordability and access to the food. Now, where are these so-called hunger hotspots? And we have a report as well, you know, that says hunger hotspots. There are different factors. The first factor, let's say starting from the Arab region, is the conflict. You know, most of these hunger hotspots are in the countries or the regions where we have conflicts, and inevitably we can have a lot of different things. Geopolitical Exactly, we cannot have any uh sort of way out, you know, from a food security perspective. Climate change is becoming a very big thing. In some, let's say, Sahara countries, uh, the climate change is eroding the livelihoods of you know the rural communities. Now, in order to transform those rural communities into some productive sectors and giving the food, those countries have to do a very big change. It's a transformational shift, but almost takes like a generation and you know, billions, hundreds of billions of dollars. Those governments may not be able to do that. So these are the essential things that we have to understand that why people are hungry. Then in some countries where you know the lowest strat of the population is you know facing hunger, we have these structural, economic, and social issues, that the distribution of the wealth and income is not in a fashion that you know it reaches to that level, and the social protection programs all the governments are doing more and more are constrained again with the fiscal spaces. So there are many factors that are contributing to this one. Even us as consumers, you know, I add global consumer, you know, um collective conscious or behavior exactly. Because what we want, for example, if we are sitting in UAE, we want the watermelons, uh, strawberries, and grapes 12 months a year, wherever it comes from. Obviously, you know, there is a trade-off. Uh, if someone is producing and sending that, there is a trade-off that some other food may not be produced somewhere. So these are the factors that we have to keep in mind. But unfortunately, this number is stark. Uh the reasons are there. I mean, one would say these are valid reasons, but as a collective uh responsibility at the global level, we have to see how can we undo those things or how can we mitigate uh those factors and reasons?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Dr. Ahmed, as you mentioned, the climate change is a key pillar here and also a contributor to the uh issue of uh of reaching the global food security. Uh still the global warming will continue for sure, I mean, for the decades to come. So, how can we manage this? How can we at least mitigate the risks of climate change on reaching the global goals when it comes to food security?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

All right. Uh but that's a good question. And um I would add to that that the global south is disproportionately affected by the climate change. Rising temperatures, as you mentioned, is a serious issue, and obviously that impacts the cropping patterns and the productivity and yield. And that is actually showing its numbers as well, or the evidence in many of the uh developing countries and the LDCs. Uh the climate change is having a very serious impact on the droughts, overall droughts, and we saw in many of the countries in recent years. Uh the big weather patterns like El Nino, El Nina, and now we are embracing for another one, would also have the erratic weather patterns that impact the whole cropping system or the crop cycles. Unfortunately, the global south or the developing countries do not have enough resources, both in terms of the financial and technical resources, to mitigate or manage this one. This is coupled with the fact that these are the countries that are having a higher share of increase in the populations. You know, the growth rates are very high in these countries. So this is more like a double-edged sword that people are uh facing. I mean, we saw many of the uh COPs, you know, the UNFCCC COPs and many other commitments to manage that, but it is difficult. Uh we at FAO, we also give uh a plan, you know, action plan to achieve uh 1.5 degree, you know, from a sorry, achieve the sustainable agriculture by keeping the temperature under 1.5. Uh but where are the resources, where is the political will, you know, uh that is needed over there. Countries who are impacted or affected do want to do it. But I think the external and internal realities are not enabling as of now. So we should not underestimate. We should not just say that it is rising temperature and that is impacting, it is impacting our production systems and impacting for good, for long. And that is something that we have to keep in mind because the agriculture land, as we know, or the cultivable land has no alternative. If it is, for example, uh the desertification or damage, then it is gone. So that is why we focus quite a lot on land uh degradation, the desertification, and these types of impacts. But I must confess that the efforts that the global development community is doing uh is totally outpaced by the impact that we see from the climate change. So I would like to highlight as probably the most important uh factor that we have to keep into consideration for food insecurity.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Dr. Ahmed, as you said, that the effect of the global warming, the the climate change um is somehow um like affecting the whole globe, but I'm sure that there are some countries that are more affected, such as the SETS, for example, the small island developing states, uh, while others, or maybe Africa, uh while others are somehow managing um the effect. And so I think the the ultimate solution here, maybe besides I mean, protecting the the planet itself, um, another ultimate solution that we may emphasize um is the trade. With regard to the food security, at least we have one country that is specializing in one product, another uh country in certain products, and then we do the exchange of products here and there to ensure that we have global food security in such a critical timing. What do you think? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Well, um I have a trade background or trade negotiations background, so I would put a lot of emphasis on this one. Uh trade is inevitable, as I mentioned, that without trade we cannot ensure global food security. But what is happening in the global marketplace is that until now, the trade in agriculture is being managed, or the trade policy in agriculture is being managed from a transactional perspective. I mean, we have a specific agreement in the World Trade Organization on the agreement on agriculture. We are negotiating on the market access and all of that, but that is all from a transactional perspective. How do you import and export whether there should be some restrictions and these types of things? Do we have a global understanding or a trade agreement from a food security perspective? Or let's say food security is a prime angle in that we do not have. And I'm a big advocate and supporter of having a multilateral agreement where we see trade and manage trade at the global level more from a food security rather than the transactional perspective. And there, you know, the dynamics will change. One tiny element that has happened very recently in the WTO is that there was a decision adopted uh by the member states in the WTO that in case of emergencies, uh, if you have to procure the food, there should not be export restrictions on that. So that is, you know, a positive thing towards that one. But we need a holistic solution. In in fact, in the Marrakesh uh declaration, or let's say when WTO was established from GATT to the WTO back in 1994, there is a decision on the net food importing developing countries, NFIDCs, where it is said specifically that we need to ensure that they have a better food security and others. But I would, with very cautious uh approach, would say that I don't think we have achieved anything substantive in that. We need to revisit. Or if not at the global level, we we can probably carve out some solutions at the regional level, uh, purely from a food security perspective. And when I say food security, that means food security as a collective responsibility at the regional or global level. Another element in this one, just to highlight the type of solutions, is this food reserve systems. For example, the ASEAN has a rice reserve system. The GCC is discussing, you know, the food reserve system as well. Some of the other regions are doing that. And that is, you know, the type of tools uh or the multilateral or regional tools that one can have. But I would urge that the uh the the member states or that the global level we need to think or carve out a solution, uh, trade for food security. We have done in NFA, we have done a lot of research on that. And obviously, by the way, trade has two uh sides of this one, I must say, because uh some countries they say that if the global markets would provide you better prices, uh everything would be exported because it's a very simple business sense. But again, those things could be managed as well, because if it is an essential food security item, you can manage the exports and you know things like that. But all in all, I think we have forgotten this uh excellent policy tool at the global level. Relack lesser progress in the WTO. Uh but we can uh re let's say start these negotiations either at the WTO or at any other fora. Um and in my view, this will help a lot uh to manage this global food security situation.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

But for these trade solutions, are they really effective during crises? I mean, yes, I understand the idea of having the competition among the global um producers of food, which will definitely be um to the advantage of the consumers at the end of the day, and getting better prices, uh better quality, and more options. But during crises, especially when the the um um aviation is blocked, when the maritime is blocked, would they work really? I think we will be back to the state itself and the idea of food sovereignty here.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

No, but that is precisely where it will work or it should work. Let me give a very recent example that we all saw uh in the State of Hormos blockade case, that all of the food items were blocked. If there was a global treaty ensuring that the food uh trade will not be blocked in any situation, same, you know, in the Black Sea when Ukraine-Russia crisis started. If there was a treaty that, you know, you should not stop these type of things, situation could have been better. And that is exactly what I'm saying. That trade in any case should be a trade in food, pardon me, should be carved out as a special solution, as a global responsibility for the food security. And these are the type of things that would give a confidence in the markets. Because um you might remember that immediately after the Ukraine crisis, the wheat prices in some cases almost tripled. True. That was not needed. Why? Because there was sufficient uh, you know, wheat available. But there was no surety of these logistics or the trade opportunities. So if we have a global understanding on that one, I believe that in crisis it will be much better and the markets will not give this type of shock that we saw in recent uh crises.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

When speaking about the population, which is mainly the consumers of the food worldwide, we are thinking of the largest um segment of that population, which is youth. According to the International Labor Organization 2024 data, 60%, over 60% of the overall global population is youth. But then to what extent are they present when the policies are made, when the decisions are made, when even thinking of the innovative ways of protecting the food, at least for the decades to come for our survival?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

That's a very important question. In fact, they are disconnected, you know, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Not even present.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Not even present, but they are completely disconnected. And they are disconnected in a way that now we have what I called completely digital persons, you know, the digital youth. How many, I mean, if we do the surveys in any of the countries, regardless of the level of development, how many would understand how Apple is grown? You know, a lot of people, whether Apple is on a tree or, you know, it's in the pot.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

They just enjoy, you know, exactly because they are discussing.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

From those understandings, how food comes in. As I said, everyone can have an access to strawberries 12 months, a year, the grapes and these things, and they don't understand there is a whole agri-food system, you know, behind it. That is one. Secondly, even on the nutrition aspects, you know, probably in the previous generation, uh the households were still a bit careful about the nutrition that how much of you know the sugars and the sweets and the carbs and these types of things you need to bring. Now the digital culture has, you know, uh basically removed that filter as well. So we need to bring youth back into agriculture and the agri-food systems. Agriculture, why? Because we have to advance or improve the agriculture from an entrepreneurial perspective, from the deployment of new ideas and technologies. So we need youth over there. In the other distribution chains, we need people in the agribusiness to have better ideas, but more importantly, we need an awareness in every youth that you know how food is produced and consumed and you know reach up to them so that they become responsible consumers and you know take it to the next generations. Um because agriculture has been more or less mechanized or commercialized as well, or food, uh, you know, the horticulture and these types of food items. So that would further increase this disconnect or the gap between the youth. So to sum up, youth is probably not probably, but in my view, the most important element to focus for you know having a real champions of the agri food systems transformation. And in fact, uh realizing this one, if you allow me, I would um take a credit that in our regional office in the Food and Agriculture Organization, we have recently launched a flagship project. It's a program basically called the Youth Agriculture Leadership Awareness for Agri-Food Systems Transformation. It's called Iala Fast. It's focused on the Arab region, but this time we are doing a global one, by the way, because it has become so big. So we basically select a group of people from the public, uh, young people, by the way, under 32, uh, from the public, private, and civil society and academia. They go through a rigorous selection process. We work with them, you know, throughout the year, then we bring them for a week uh in one of the situations, let's say, locations. Uh last time it was Rabad, now it will be Abu Dhabi. And then we work with them on the actual cases, and then they become our champions of change and we continue working with them.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Dr. Ahmed, for us to reach uh proper and more relevant uh policies here and strategies, definitely we need more of uh excellence and data-driven systems to be built. And this is not necessarily affordable for all countries, especially in the global south. So, how can we have and utilize the available open data uh systems that especially the FAO, for example, it's uh more of a global um um sort of organization that provides um information, studies, benchmarks that we can benefit from and we try to tailor make it based on our needs and urgency.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Thank you. Um it is a very important thing, you know. As food is the basic uh thing for humans, I think data is the basic for food policy. Uh but look, as you said, a lot of countries do not have what we call the evidence grade data and the analytics due to many reasons uh disaggregation of the data, not reporting in a format, and analytics in particular. Um at FAO, I can tell you that we have tried to bridge this gap. One is of course the FAO statistics, which is the largest one, you know, in terms of the agriculture and used quite extensively all over the world. But then we have gone into the analytics, you know. There are different products. For example, the biggest one is the hand-in-hand geospatial data platform, which any country or any region can go in, and you know, we have plenty of access, it's a public good, and we have many layers of the data, you know, from production to nutrition to distribution, the weather, and so on and so forth. We are also extending it uh to the next levels by having a global situation room which uh identifies some of the hot spots on the global food security. Uh at regional level, we are working with the countries we have established some of the uh food security and nutrition observatories, which are the analytical um sorry, analytical input for the policy makers so that they can use uh a tailor-made uh data for as an evidence for the policy making. Many other institutions are doing the same. World Food Program, WFP is doing um data mapping, you know, uh more importantly, to track the hunger in the conflict areas or you know, the humanitarian crisis-prone areas. Uh the World Bank is doing um, you know, quite a lot in terms of the analytics, but still there is a lot that needs to be done. Now, sometimes when you have so much of you know this type of databases, as I mentioned, as a user in let's say ministry sitting in one of the countries, for example, in Benan, uh you need also another expertise or you know the interface so that that user who is sitting in the Ministry of Agriculture can use it. And for that, I think we need uh national level efforts, working with the development partners, whosoever they are working with, to come up with something, you know, which gives them a data dashboard or analytical dashboard that can help them to make the policies or adjust the policies of food and agriculture in general on more, let's say, real-time basis. Previously, agriculture was taken as if you know every year you would revisit what type of subsidies you want to give, what type of allocations and the land policies you want to do. Now, like all other sectors, and due to availability, it is a real-time business. So we have to make this accessible to everyone so that they can have access to the real-time data and analytics.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Dr. Ahmed, a key challenge that we are facing um almost in all sectors, is financing uh key projects. So, what is the situation when it comes to financing uh agri-food systems, when it comes to financing uh food security projects that will uh bring more of like a collective benefit for the society?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Well, it is uh as uh sorry beautiful situation as other sectors, but I think in agriculture it is even uh worse. In order to meet the SDG2, we need $2.7 trillion. Do we have that? Absolutely no. So that's you know the very stark reality that we face. For agriculture, there are different uh challenges, I mean, much more than the other sectors. One is that in any situation, whether it is an advanced country or you know, less advanced country, investment into agriculture have certain characteristics. One, it's a very long-term investment in general, because you need to invest in the infrastructure and then the cropping cycles and the systems experiment and then get out of it. Secondly, it has relatively low return as compared to the others. And third, you have very little appetite for the private finance to go into that one due to these reasons. Although, interestingly enough, in almost all of the countries, their central banks do credit allocation, you know, compulsion or the credit rationing for the uh agriculture sector. But how much of that is actually utilized is still a question. I would not name a country, but there is a country, and this is the fact that we have to understand, and the what I call the policy dichotomies that people need to understand. In that country, if you take the agriculture credit, you are given a concessional rate because it is subsidized by the government. So let's assume that rate is 7%. So what farmers would do, or let's say in in this case, in that country specific case, uh, there are big farms as well who can take a whole lot of you know credit, uh not just the microcredits from those institutions. They simply deposit that into the banks because banks are giving 27% interest rate. Now, you know, I mean that is the reality that one has to understand. Even if there is a credit, even if it is there uh there is a concessional credit, um, you cannot use that because there is an alternative. So there is no check and balance mechanism. Same is the case with the global, let's say, financing or the international financing. We have the traditional financers and the donors and you know the concessional grant givers uh to many countries to develop their infrastructures, water systems, the land restoration, and you know, these types of things. But one, as I said, they are long-term, then they normally flow over one to two political cycles in certain countries. And those political cycles do not have the same appetite or urge to complete those projects or programs in a fashion that it should have been. And that gives these international donors or financial institutions not a very encouraging signal, and slowly they try to, you know, scale down. Uh, when it comes to the global private finance getting into agriculture, there are some good examples. For example, they go on a big uh commercial agriculture project, you know, by buying maybe you know 10,000 hectares in one country and for the others. But these are just isolated examples. They do not serve more than 93 percent of you know the smallholder farmers and the farms that need the financing uh gap. Then some of that financing that we are talking about for the SDG2 needs to go into the social sectors as well. You know, these uh low-income uh households that are having the food and nutrition insecurity issues. And that is a very, very difficult political challenge because it might depend on that, you know, specific country's political regime or the government regime, whether that regime you know aligns with the donors or you know the lenders and so on and so forth. So there are so many complexities that I would say it is very safe to assume, although it is a very difficult statement to say in public, but it is safe to assume that uh we don't see a very positive um you know outlook outlook for the financing in the agri-food systems. We are, I mean, I personally have been involved in establishing a few of you know the transformation funds and uh particularly very recently we designed Arab Agriculture Transformation Fund. Now, if you look at the announcements, let's say, by some regional development banks, they would say that I have allocated 100 million or you know $1 billion for the food security and others. But once you go into the actual action, those 1 billion or 100 million probably are not going to be mobilized due to the reasons that I mentioned. I'm not blaming anyone, but the landscape is so complex that it is extremely difficult to really mobilize the finance. Unless the country itself has that much physical uh fiscal capacity, sorry, or and the you know the monetary instruments through the banks or the others, it will be probably very difficult. And I feel that in the short to medium term it will stay as an underfinanced sector.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Ahmed, you mentioned many elements here that contribute to the global food security. You mentioned trade policy, you mentioned government regulation, you mentioned the need for infrastructure, you mentioned the industrial aspect, youth, innovation, technology. The process seems very complicated here, especially that is um food security is an urgent need for us, for our survival. So, towards the end of this conversation, what are your suggestions, especially if to do more of diplomatic global south uh collaborations um to enhance the situation?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

That's a very difficult question, uh, but I'll try to let's encapsulate. As you mentioned, um food security has to be seen, or food security solution, let's call it that way, has to be seen in a holistic manner. It is not just producing or having a food and then you know making it available on the shelves. Um let me highlight, because we did not highlight that importance, it is of the nutrition aspect of the food. We call it healthy diets, you know, that everyone should have a healthy diet or affordable healthy diets. As I said, in some countries, more than 40% of the calories come only from bread. Now you see that this is not just one element to consider, it has implications, generational implications, because that would translate into the public health crisis later on. That has a cost on your national exchequer, that would impact the productivity negatively, you know, uh the productivity of that workforce, and the next generations would have those nutritional deficiencies. So it's a very serious issue that we have to take into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

And the need for a better health care or more access to health care.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

More access to exactly that's a cost as well. So this is you know one side. The second uh side is the global one that, as I said, yes, there is a trade and trade needs to happen. But do we have a trade from a food security angle? We don't have that much, you know, of the emphasis on that. What we need, I think, as a solution is to see food, uh, let's say at a at a national level, food security policy has to be hand in hand and completely complemented by the fiscal policies, social policies, trade policies, and health policies as well, to say the least, of course, linkages with the others as well, but these are the minimum ones. At the global level, food security should not be just said that the markets are open or should remain open. They need to go beyond that, that in case of the crises, you know, in some situation, there has to be a mechanism that can feed that country or that region or, you know, that segment of a population, uh, not from a humanitarian food intervention perspective, but from a food security perspective. And when we say food security, uh, allow me to give an example of Gaza, let's say, very recently. One solution that the global community is giving is providing the food aid, correct?

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

That's not true.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

In terms of money, you mean?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Money or actual food, you know, by sending uh whatever. Unfortunately, not many of the you know actual food can go over there because they have to procure. But we fail to understand that their agriculture lands, whatever you know, limited number that they had and the livestock almost uh uh does not exist now due to you know this war and all of that. We need to restore that. And in order to restore that, whatever, let's say livestock is uh left over there, we need to provide a feed for the livestock as well. We need to provide seed for those agriculture lands, and that is the food security approach, not just giving a food in case of crisis, but going beyond that. To having a livelihood type of approach so that people do have a system, and particularly in the rural areas, because agriculture is the main livelihood part of that. So we need a mindset shift, we need a paradigm shift to think in a food security uh as a global challenge, a global solution implemented at the local levels. Only then we would have successful things. Otherwise, individual efforts may not be uh yielding in a fashion that we need as of now to counter these 700 million plus hungry people, to have degradation in the production systems, uh, and the ambition to achieve the sustainable increase in the production that is also a big challenge. Because by 2050, we need 40 percent more production, but we also need in a sustainable fashion. Uh in the existing mindset, we may not be able to get that much success. If we change our mindset to finding a global solution implemented at the local levels, I think we have a fair chance.

unknown 38:20

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Ahmad Mukhtar, thank you so much for being with us and for sharing your thoughts, uh, experiences, and extensive work when it comes to the food security.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

It's my pleasure, and thank you so much, and best of luck, for this uh series of podcasts. You've been listening to Global Southern Podcast.